Covid Vaccine Recovery

Like many, Michelle Grace Hunter felt coerced into having her vaccine. She thought it essential for her industry and career. Michelle has always been active and healthy and did not expect the vaccine to impact her health so dramatically. What made it harder is that the medical profession generally didnt believe her  and advised her to take mood drugs to cope. Fortunately, Naturopath Steph Gadsden has had much experience with chronic and adverse reactions and together the road to recovery was walked.

This episode highlights the complex, multifaceted experience of individuals dealing with reactions to COVID vaccination. It underscores the need for compassionate care, credible support networks, and persistence in seeking effective, individualised treatment and validation  

If you feel that the Covid Vaccine impacted you, support is available here:  https://coverse.org.au/  and  Steph Gadsden can be contacted here: https://mergehealth.com.au/

Transcript

Covid Vaccine Recovery

Daniel

Hello, Michelle, and hello, Steph.

Michelle

Hello, thanks for having us. Hey.

Daniel

Absolute pleasure. This is a topic that's fairly close to my heart. I've been involved in reactions to COVID vaccination for some time now. And so for me, it's really interesting to have this conversation. And part of the interest and why I'm really delighted to have you on, Michelle, and Steph, of course, but Michelle particularly, because Through my work, so many people have reported reactions. So many practitioners, doctors and naturopaths have seen patients with all sorts of reactions to the COVID vaccine. And I've been in online forums where so many people have had reactions. But to get them to come and talk online is a different story. There's a real fear about exposing themselves. And I'm wondering if I could get your thoughts as to why that is, Michelle.

Michelle

Oh, that's a great question. I think I also had that fear initially, I think especially being someone in the music industry and the sort of very strong opinions of a lot of people around the COVID vaccine during COVID and how much it was pushed, particularly in our industry, because I guess it was sold to us as the thing that was going to get us back. So you need to do this because otherwise we can't have our industry back. So there was a really, really strong push. And anyone that sort of went against the grain were completely isolated and mocked and ridiculed, to be honest. And I saw a lot of that. I actually had a lot of friends that remained unvaccinated and I saw what they went through and how hard it was for them. And so, yeah, when sort of something happened to me, I was very hesitant to talk about it. for a long time, actually. I don't even think I went public. Gosh, it was over six months and it would've been, and it probably was when I had my relapse, which was sort of almost a year into it that I really started talking about it and was like, basically because I thought, I think this is the thing that means I'm gonna lose my career anyway because I was so unwell and I was like, sort of like, I've got nothing left to lose, so I might as well talk about it. And it was sort of ironic because it was like the thing that I did to get my career back and to start working again because I was so desperate to get back to my job and my career because it's my whole life. It's everything to me. It's my purpose. It's the reason that I get up in the morning and I was so desperate to get that back. So when that was taken away from me because of my health, It was absolutely devastating. So yeah, I was like, well, if I'm going to lose my career, yeah, stuff it. Here we go. I just might as well.

Daniel

Have a go. And you're a photographer.

Michelle

I'm a photographer, yes. So I've been shooting in the music industry for 15 years now. And a lot of what I do or had been doing, especially up until COVID when we were shut down for so long, but I was touring like I was on the road for sometimes six or seven months at a time or all around the world. And my job is physical. Like the one of the biggest symptoms that I had was I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs. And I don't know if you've been to many music venues, but especially bigger ones, there's a lot of stairs and up and down and up and down, off and off stage, up and off stage and like carrying things, carrying my backpack. So I wasn't able to do a lot of those things at the start. So it really restricted my physical ability and that was even my fitness. Like I've been able, you know, I've been going to the gym and being fit my entire life. So having that taken away from me and not being able to exercise and stuff like that was, yeah, essentially my whole life was completely changed.

Daniel

Yeah, yeah. When I was a student, I used to work in music venues as a student job. And I actually do remember the equipment that the photographers used to lug around in the boxes, the cartons, oh my God. Yeah, totally.

Michelle

So you need to be physically. And I think that's one thing now is like, I really don't take that for granted. Like everything that I'm doing now that I'm well is around. getting as strong and fit and healthy as possible just for longevity. So yeah.

Daniel

Okay. And so do you think the fear of talking about reactions to the COVID vaccine are mainly from people within your peer group or your profession or colleagues or from the medical profession who have gaslighted a lot of people?

Michelle

I think my individual fear was from the industry. Like I felt like people wouldn't want to work with me or friends would stop talking to me or other, you know, acquaintances essentially. And I think there was a little bit of that. I think there was definitely people that just stopped engaging with me. But to be honest, it was quite the opposite. Like I actually had a lot of people reach out and you know, say that they had had similar reactions and were really scared to talk out as well. And so there was also a little bit of a sense of a new community of people that felt, okay, there's a few of us here and they felt comfort in the fact that I was able to speak publicly, even though a lot of them chose to remain not to. So, but in terms of the medical industry and what happened to us, Yeah, I guess gaslighting is probably a good, good word. I don't know if it's gaslighting or just complete denial or I actually don't know. It'd be really interesting to talk to someone that was in it and then maybe came around at some point because I know just the language that, you know, was used with us. It was a lot of a lot of similar words in terms of, this is just anxiety. This is just in your head. Yep. You know, that sort of thing. I was turned away. I was just telling Steph that one of my most triggering moments is when I was turned away from hospital the third time that I had presented. And the nurse said to me, she said, you should seek therapy for your anxiety issues. And she just sent me away on the street. And I just said to Steph, you know, it felt like she thought I was crazy. And that's, I don't know, that's obviously a big trigger for me, for somebody thinking that I'm crazy. I think I'm very sane and like very level headed. And I'm like, I don't like, I don't have big outbursts of emotions and stuff like that. So that was terrifying to be just like, oh, she doesn't believe me and she's just sending me out on the street at my most vulnerable moment. So yeah.

Daniel

Steph, how are you?

Steph

Yeah, good, thanks.

Daniel

Yeah, thank you for agreeing to come on today.

Steph

No problem.

Daniel

Steph, you're a naturopath. And in your experience, have you come across many people that have had some sort of reaction to the COVID vaccines?

Steph

Yes, so... My background's in chronic fatigue syndrome and MCAS and chronic infection. So when COVID hit and the vaccine mandates started, we were inundated actually with people with reactions to the vaccines. And because we'd been working with complex chronic illness for, you know, 10 or 12 years before, and my personal story is with chronic fatigue and POTS. So a lot of the people presenting were presenting sort of like a chronic fatigue syndrome case and were reaching out to us. And that was old patients who had previously recovered from, you know, CFS and managing their symptoms really well. And then there was a whole bunch of new people, such as Michelle, who had really never been unwell before and all of a sudden, you know, lost their livelihood, their lives. completely turned upside down after the COVID vaccine.

Daniel

So do you see, and I think you did mention it, but do you see a significant similarity between COVID vaccine reactions and chronic conditions like CFS or chronic fatigue syndrome?

Steph

Yes, yeah, 100%. It's very similar, the presentation. Obviously, there's some differences and nuances, but that complex chronic patient or that complex chronic illness, it looks very similar. There's a lot of mast cell issues, there's a lot of inflammation, it's multi-system, so people are presenting with many different symptoms that it's not all the same. Obviously, there's the cardiovascular symptoms as well, lots of autonomic dysfunction, so the autonomic nervous system's, you know, completely gone haywire. So yes, very, very similar in terms of the presentation. Yeah.

Daniel

Yeah. And without getting too technical, do you think there's similarities around mitochondrial activity?

Steph

Yes. Yeah, definitely. And a big treatment for us when we're treating people with long backs is trying to recover the mitochondria as well. Yeah.

Daniel

Okay. So are you differentiating between long vax and long COVID, or do you throw them all into one basket?

Steph

So in the beginning it was easier to differentiate because no one had had COVID and everyone had had the vaccine. So you could sort of see the the picture quite clearly. Now it's all messed up. So, you know, you've got people with long, long vax and long COVID or and other chronic infections and chronic like it's all It's getting harder and harder, I think, to differentiate.

Daniel

Yeah. Okay, thanks. So Michelle, this podcast is called A Patient Story because we're interested in what happened to the patient, the person. And so I'd be interested in just discussing your case with a few more details, if that's okay. So you were under some duress, under some pressure to get the COVID vaccine. Were you a willing recipient or did you have to go in kicking and screaming?

Michelle

I was somewhere in the middle, to be honest. I wasn't, I was, the willingness part was just to get my life back and to get, I couldn't see another way out, let's put it that way. And I know there was a friend of mine that I, we toured together and I basically talked him into getting, he was very hesitant and I talked him into getting the vaccine because I was like, I can't see a way where we'll be able to tour again. Like, I just thought that that was going to be our lives forever. Like the vaccine passport thing was going to be eternal. Like, I think it's so stupid now, but I guess when you've been locked in your house for two years, it does things to your brain and your critical thinking skills. But to be honest, I'd also listened to a couple of podcasts of people that I really respect who were definitely asking questions and just being a bit like, hmm, this, could be an issue. So originally I was scheduled to get the Pfizer vaccine in July of 2021. And my husband and I had a discussion after we heard this one particular podcast. And I was like, let's just push it back. Like, let's just see, surely if there's a big signal and there's lots of people getting sick, like, we'll hear about it and they'll stop it. And you know, like, just so naive, like, that's how my brain worked. I was like, The government would never do this to us. And so, yeah, I was just like, let's just wait. And then it got to a point where it was like, yeah, we just weren't able to enter work sites. So my husband needed it. He was working at an organisation at the time, which he had to have it to enter the building. And for me, as a freelance photographer, I needed it to enter studios. So they were starting to ask, anytime that you were booked for a job, can you please show us your vaccine status? So it just got to a point where like, you know, starting to be booked for jobs again, and then I wouldn't be able to do these jobs if I wasn't vaccinated. So, yeah, I guess you would call that coercion.

Daniel

I remember at the time there's a lot of discussion around which vaccine people would choose the AstraZeneca, the Pfizer, the Moderna, you know, so on.

Michelle

That was definitely I remember also being relieved that we were going to be eligible for Pfizer because of the issues that we'd heard from AstraZeneca.

Daniel

Right.

Michelle

So you were like, oh, yeah, cool. I'm so glad we're, you know, my husband and I were both eligible for that. So let's book in for that. And we ended up getting it in September of 2021.

Daniel

Okay. So you went in, you got the vaccine. What happened then?

Michelle

So it was about five days late or four. So I got it on a Monday and by the Friday I started to have I had my first sort of like panic attack, which is what I was calling them at the time. And I went home and I was sort of out at the post office and I went home and I called my husband and I said, something really weird is happening. And that was sort of the start of the many of these panic attack type feelings that I was having. And then the chest pain started. And so that night, I actually couldn't sleep because the chest pain was so bad. It was like stabbing chest pain. And I messaged a friend of mine who worked at ER. And I just said, what should I do? And she said, just go into the hospital. They'll check you out. And if you worry, just go in. And so I did. And I had-- the doctor I saw was actually really great. And he was like, we're seeing a lot of people coming in after Pfizer that are presenting with this chest pain. They did a blood test, and I think they were looking for. Is it troponin levels that they look for? I think it's raised troponin levels. I think that's what it's called, where it's some type of enzyme or something in the heart. So yeah, you know, do you have this myocarditis? And he's like, you don't have that. And you know he that it was always like that happens to young males, anyway. So anytime I presented they were sort of like. you don't fit the profile. Actually, they actually said that to me one time, like that you don't fit the profile. But I kept presenting with this, like very, very severe and very concerning chest pain. Like, I can't really explain to you what it feels like, but it felt like to me, I was having a heart attack. So I was getting more and more concerned that it kept happening. And then the sort of a couple of weeks passed, and I was getting ready for my second one. Oh, actually, I should mention when they discharged me the first time, the doctor that discharged me said he pulled me into this room, and he like closed the curtain, and he was like. you know, everyone's really anxious about Covid, and he's like, you need to get your second shot. Covid is really serious, and You know, you're just feeling a lot of anxiety around this. This is what this is and make sure you get your second. He was sort of like really chastising me. And I was like, that's really weird because I wasn't not considering getting it. I was, and I hadn't said anything to the tune of that. I was just like presenting with this issue that nobody could sort of help me with.

Daniel

So when you first got the vaccine on the Monday, on the Friday, you started getting panic attacks. Can you describe what you were feeling in the general term of panic attack? What was that like for you?

Michelle

Yeah, so it felt like a rush of like adrenaline that just doesn't subside for hours, like hours. And it comes in waves. And it gets to the point where like I'd be physically shaking, my legs would be shaking. my heart rate's through the roof and I'm just being dumped with adrenaline and over and over and over again. And it's like a night, it's like the worst feeling you can possibly feel.

Daniel

And.

Michelle

So I was having these along with the chest pain, obviously the chest pain was like crippling, you know, almost nine out of 10 chest pain. Like it was so concerning.

Daniel

Did it affect your breathing?

Michelle

No, other than like my heart rate was, it felt like it would just skyrocket out of the blue. So I could just be sitting here and then all of a sudden I noticed it just started going haywire and nothing had happened. It would just all of a sudden just skyrocket or the worst really was when I would sleep. So I'd go to bed and sometimes I would get to sleep. But if I got up to go to the toilet or something in the night and try to sleep, then that would a panic attack would happen. My heart would be pounding. It'd be like every everything was just out of whack.

Daniel

Michelle, would you think that was a adrenaline sort of reaction that was happening in the middle of the night? I'm sorry, I meant to say Stefan, not Michelle, but that's.

Michelle

I don't even know. I think I know MCAS people talk about those adrenaline dumps, but I don't know if it's actually an MCAS thing or.

Steph

I think it's an interplay between that and the nervous system, but it was typical. Most patients who are presenting with the vaccine injury would describe it pretty similar to how Michelle has described it as these adrenaline dumps or adrenaline surges. And they would describe it as this massive rush of like felt like adrenaline surging through their bodies that would either result in panic or increased in heart rate or tachycardia or those sorts of things.

Daniel

And would it be common for people to get the same symptoms at night? Because, you know, there's some unusual adrenaline activity for people often, even without vaccination at two or three o'clock in the morning. I'm just wondering if it's an exacerbation of that typical exhaustion, adrenal type of response.

Steph

Yeah, yeah, I think that was common, but not always. I think that it was quite random. A lot for a lot of patients for you definitely was at night time was the after eight stop.

Michelle

So I was getting reactions or supplements.

Steph

Yes.

Michelle

So I was taking stuff and then it would happen.

Steph

Yes.

Michelle

So I was connecting it to food a lot, but the night time it seemed to me to be connected to when maybe like an autonomic thing because if I got up and then tried to sleep again, like there was something about the getting up and then going back to sleep that triggered it as well. So I don't know, it was all over the place. It was like a nightmare. Like it was honestly a nightmare.

Steph

Yes.

Daniel

Yeah. Michelle, you seem to be quite knowledgeable about your own health and health generally. Is this something that you've learned about? See your reaction or have you always had a comprehension of health in your body?

Michelle

No, I think I was health conscious, but like not. I mean, I did a sports science degree, so I'd like I knew the basics. But in terms of like what I went through, I think most of us that are vaccine injured, like most of us feel like we've got some type of degree in something now, like the things that we know. I remember seeing a friend, my mum's friend who has long COVID, and obviously there's such crossover. And she was just like so shocked at the things that I knew and was telling her friend, you know, have you tried this? And I was like, yeah, we've had to be because like, no, there was such lack of information that the community had to really get really knowledgeable, like a lot of the stuff that we know we've had to learn amongst ourselves. And obviously the the few practitioners that we were able to find that could help in that, especially early on. I really think it was naturopaths that were out there waving the flag because nobody else would touch it, really. They just didn't want to have a bar of it.

Daniel

Well, you know, funny story. I gave a couple of webinars back in those days and very well attended, literally thousands of practitioners attending two webinars. But all the doctors that booked in said, we want to listen to what you've got to say, but don't use our name. Can we use a fake name when we register? And I thought, oh, what a terrible indictment on the health system if people are too scared to use their own name.

Michelle

I mean, that really happened. That sort of happened, that sort of communication, like when I went to try and get an exemption from the booster and my GP at the time was like, Do not get another vaccine. She's like, I, she, this is what she said to me. She's like, I think it will kill you. Do not get another vaccine. She said, but I can't write you an exemption because I will lose my license.

Daniel

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. You mentioned earlier, Michelle, that you also reacted to food. Was there specific foods that affected you or just general eating?

Michelle

It probably, it's hard to know at the time because I felt like I was reacting to everything. But at that time, that's sort of the time I started seeing Steph and we did sort of an anti-inflammatory diet at that point, which immediately stopped that panic.

Daniel

Good.

Michelle

So I think I was probably reacting to gluten, to dairy, to all the things that we sort of had cut like tea we cut out and a few of the supplements that I guess we will react. I was reacting to at the time. I remember I tried beef liver and that was probably the worst panic attack I had.

Daniel

Wow.

Michelle

So we had to be really, and then when we introduced stuff, Steph would be like, okay, you need to take like a quarter of like this. I had to split tablets up and like go really, really easy. And then we would like slowly, slowly increase doses and stuff like that. So, but yeah, the anti-inflammatory diet, that's the thing that I tell everybody, if you've done nothing else, like do that to start with, because it really, it really calmed down the most acute and probably the the stuff that was causing me the most distress at the time.

Daniel

Steph, what is an anti-inflammatory diet?

Steph

Yeah, so we started Michelle on a gluten and dairy free diet. We also did a low histamine diet as well. and taking out some of the food triggers, you weren't really having caffeine, but you're having tea, weren't you? So we took out anything that was going to stimulate the fight flight response too much because she was already, that was already happening quite a lot. And then just basic whole foods really. And the other key thing with Michelle and a lot of people who have this autonomic dysfunction is that blood sugar dysregulation happens as well. And so it's really about, you know, making sure there's no sort of triggers from the environment or the food that's going to launch that autonomic nervous system into this chaotic state. Yeah.

Daniel

And so what would a typical breakfast look like in lunch and dinner while you're there?

Steph

Yeah. So what were you eating for breakfast, Michelle?

Michelle

Gosh, I can't even remember. I've got to go back in time. No, but that's the other thing now is like, I've gone into perimenopause and I feel like I can't. Which is really bad. That's what we're working on now.

Daniel

Okay, that's okay. I'll push you too hard.

Michelle

I'm like trying to reach back to go where I was and I literally can't remember.

Daniel

An anti-inflammatory diet, I guess, Steph, is mainly vegetables.

Steph

Yeah, fruit and veg and a good quality protein. I think with the low histamine, you have to be mindful of some of the high histamine foods like fish and eggs can be problematic for some people. Avocado, a lot of people have a lot of avocado on their breakfast. Like just the benign things that you're eating all the time could be quite triggering in those early stages if you've got an MCAS presentation. So just removing some of those foods and supporting the body to be able to deal with that load better.

Daniel

Okay, so MCAS stands for Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, and it's certainly something that's been talked about a lot more in the last few years, where histamine and mast cells take over the body and reactions fairly unchecked for those people. Do you think that MCAS has been further activated from the COVID vaccine or do you think it's more of a societal environmental type of issue?

Steph

I think it's both and, but definitely post the COVID vaccine and post this sort of COVID period, we have seen it dramatically increase like crazy amounts. And I think there's a few reasons to that. Like we obviously know COVID and the COVID vaccine has an impact on histamine and the mast cells. And for Michelle, I think that even though you were so well pretty much your whole life, there was this sort of underlying mast cell activation. You know, Michelle had a history of... endometriosis and...

Michelle

Alcohol intolerance.

Steph

Alcohol intolerance. You'd had previous reactions to medications.

Michelle

And yeah, and caffeine I've always been sensitive to as well.

Steph

Yes, and so there was sort of this picture, but Michelle, you know, you're pretty health conscious, pretty active.

Michelle

You know, I just want to avoid those things. Like, no, I don't drink caffeine, I don't drink alcohol. And yeah, I never, I obviously didn't put two and two together, but I... would just avoid the things that I felt like were triggers. But I didn't have a name for it. I didn't know what it was MCAS was or anything like that. So it wasn't until this happened and Steph sort of explained that there was sort of obviously an underlying thing and it just obviously triggered it into chaos.

Daniel

Yeah. Steph, my understanding of MCAS is a lot of a lot of it starts in the gut. And is that where a lot of your focus would be? Healing the intestine.

Steph

Yeah, we did a lot of gut work, but for Michelle, you know, she couldn't tolerate anything in the beginning. Like we were doing topical creams. So, you know, a lot of Michelle's vitamins that support helping with MCAS or methylation were low, like B12 and folate. And you did have a high whole blood histamine and some of the other markers. So we did mainly topicals for ages, didn't we? And like tiny drop doses, like it was very, just trying to calm Everett, to calm Michelle down and stabilize her system. And that worked really well. And you got, and also the nervous system work and breath work.

Michelle

Breath work, meditation, grounding, sunlight, like that was really instrumental, I think, in the healing part. And I think also something that a lot of people maybe don't put enough weight into. Like if I had to comment on maybe why Actually, it's hard to tell because a lot of people do those things as well. But I was like religious with that stuff like and red light therapy I was doing every single day. We bought a grounding sheet for my bed. We bought a sauna during that time. You were doing all the things. My husband's very health conscious as well. So he was like on board. He's like, what are we doing? We're doing all. But yeah, and I also like just noted When I would get out in the environment, for example, I live near the beach. There were times where if I had a panic attack, my husband would take me to the beach and put me in the water, and it would just immediately calm everything down. So just being able to notice those types of things, or if I did breathwork, being able to actually calm myself down and how much of an impact that had, I think just gave me a bit of a sense of control, like there's little things that I can do myself. if I'm in these states that can bring everything down to sort of baseline for a little while. So that gave me a lot of relief.

Daniel

Last time I went for a swim in Victoria, the water was so cold it took my breath away completely.

Michelle

Yes, well that is still the case. Thankfully when this is happening was like, most of it was like the height of summer. So that was the only time you'll see me in the water.

Daniel

Fair enough. All of this happened presumably before you had your second shot.

Michelle

No.

Daniel

The work with Steph.

Michelle

It happened. And I would say the majority of this actually happened after the second shot. So I think I sort of tricked myself into thinking things had calmed down. I'm fine. I've just got to get this second shot and then my life will go back to normal. I just sort of was like, I've got to do it. And then that's sort of when all hell broke loose. Like that was the biggest mistake was getting that second shot, I think.

Daniel

So I guess it was kind of nerve-wracking going for the second shot in some ways, given that one of your previous GPs had said, don't do it.

Michelle

No, that was for the booster. Oh, that was for the booster. Yeah, I hadn't seen a GP by that point. I did see my GP a little while after the second shot, which is when I really started to presenting to hospital. Everything went crazy. Like a lot of those symptoms just ramped up to 100 panic attacks. I was having like 7 eight a day. I didn't start seeing Steph until after the second shot. And don't worry, I did not get a booster. But my GP actually was, I went, I presented to her and she could see how distressed I was. And she's like, I've never seen you like this before. Like, why are you like this? And I said, this is just since I got the vaccine. And she just sort of dismissed it and was like, well, it's not the vaccine. You must be stressed about something. And she tried to prescribe me anti-anxiety medication. And I was like, there's no way I'm going on anti-anxiety medication. I know that's not what this is. And I just, I mean, I just never went back to her after that, so.

Daniel

Yeah. Okay, Steph, we've talked about diet and can you just step us through any supplements or supplement regime that you considered for Michelle?

Michelle

Yes, all of the things.

Steph

Yeah, I guess it's like any... person, you're treating the whole person. And I think that's where naturopaths really thrive in helping people with vaccine injury because you're looking holistically. So we, from Michelle's blood work, you know, like I mentioned, she had. low B vitamins, she had high histamine, she had poor liver detox pathways. So we're slowly trying to support those. And we first started just with compounded cream. So like a pyrrol primer cream to get the B6 and zinc in, B12 and folate. We also started with some trying some vitamin C and some mast cell stabilizing support and anything that we could get into Michelle that she could tolerate some quercetin when we could, but we couldn't tolerate that straight away. We even tried some H1 blockers as well, pharmaceuticals, and they were quite helpful for calming down the panic and adrenaline surges, melatonin as well. Obviously, melatonin is very antihistamine and supports sleep. And what else did we use? We, and then we sort of staged it over time until you could like fully tolerate actual oral supplementation. We even did topical glutathione because Michelle couldn't, couldn't take any detox support orally.

Michelle

That spray made my skin beautiful though. That was a bonus.

Steph

That was a bonus. Yeah. And then eventually for Michelle also, we looked, you know, there were some other, what we commonly see with the vax, long vax, is that it can reactivate other infections. And so we did see some other infections underneath the surface, but we could never really get to them because Michelle was so reactive. And so it was really just about making sure you were stable with antihistamine support and natural antihistamines for replenishing the body. supporting the HPA access and then eventually we were able to, and recovering the gut, eventually we were able to get some sort of antimicrobials or support in there to treat the other underlying infections.

Michelle

Yeah.

Daniel

Yeah. What sort of timeline on average would you think is relevant for a lot of people to start to feel better?

Steph

So Michelle started feeling better within about three months with the diet and just getting the creams on, which was awesome. You got quite, you know, we dampened down that response quite quickly. And then we're going tracking along pretty well.

Michelle

You can describe it. You had a big, I had a big relapse. Yeah. So I guess I got a little bit ahead of myself thinking, I'm fine, I'm back to normal. And I sort of threw myself back into work. And then I had a massive relapse with a big wake up call. And so I had a relapse and I had an overseas trip planned and not a holiday, a work trip, which was very important to me. And I just convinced myself that I was going to be okay. And I just wasn't okay. And being away from home when you're unwell is just, I do not recommend. So immediately, like the flight really took it out of me. I remember calling Steph when I landed the first night because then the adrenaline dump stuff started again, I couldn't sleep, it was like the panic stuff started. And I couldn't walk upstairs again. And I was in America. I just don't recommend being away. And every time I was flying, because I've had quite a few flights cross country on that trip, and I was having panic attacks on the flight. I thought I was going to die on a plane. I'd convinced myself. I'm like, I'm going to die on a plane. I called Steph crying one day. She's like, you're not going to die. She was like, my therapist. So yeah, and then we got home and I basically then just took three months off and was like, I just need to focus on getting better. Like nothing is more important than just, you know, getting well and sort of started all over again. And then, you know, from that point, I just, the reintroduction back into work and stuff, I just took it so slow. Like it was just like baby steps. I'm like, I'm not risking This being a chronic condition, which I've seen a lot of in the vaccine in your community, relapses or chronic pericarditis, or I just didn't want that. Actually around that time was when I eventually got my pericarditis diagnosis 'cause I couldn't, everyone kept telling me it wasn't like the cardiologist I saw originally that it wasn't. And I ended up seeing this, another cardiologist who just said, you're presenting exactly like everything that we've seen, which I guess was very validating, but from a treatment perspective, and this is what Steph said as well, we're still treating it the same. It didn't really change anything. It just for me validated what I was feeling from the very start. Like I was like, it just feels like this to me. Like I could literally feel it. So that was really validating, but then I guess the treatment with Steph was just like, we're continuing doing what we're doing. And then it's just been a very slow, gradual improvement to what I consider now is pretty much full health.

Daniel

Yeah, that's great. Michelle, you mentioned a few times that you're involved with the vaccine damage community. Can you just talk to me a little bit about the community so people that are listening to this podcast know that there's friends out there, friends in there.

Michelle

I mean, first and foremost, it was like the sort of the Facebook groups was like what popped up during COVID, like little communities of people finding each other, which is a little bit fraught because we the groups would keep getting shut down. We're being very heavily censored, even trying to talk amongst ourselves just to try and get help. But so then we started talking in code words and trying to keep the groups alive. And but there was a lot of people that We were just all helping ourselves. Actually, it was a person within the vaccine in your community that sort of pointed me to the fact that it could have been an MCAS thing in which I told Steph after a particular situation, I had taken a Zyrtec and you were like, oh, if that works, then this is a picture for you sort of thing. So there was like lots of different people. people that could just give a little, like a little link, but then you can take, you know, to someone else and be like, Can you help me with this? But yeah, so and then now I'm involved with a group called Coverse, which is a science led and also patient led support group of people that have been vaccine injured. And obviously, you know, the group is the there for information and also to sort of lobby government into what could be done better and things like that as well.

Daniel

Are they a US based group?

Michelle

No, we're Australian based group.

Daniel

Okay, fantastic.

Michelle

A group in America called React 19. So it's very similar.

Daniel

That's right. Yeah, yep, yep. Okay. No, I know I've tried to publish a few podcasts where COVID-19 and People have had various issues and we haven't made it through the censors often. It's kind of remarkable that it's still being censored so heavily.

Michelle

Yeah. And so like, it's a bit, obviously it's a bit better now, but at the time, like nothing was getting through. Like it was just impossible. Like everything was just so heavily censored. It's amazing that people actually found each other during that time. So it was, I guess, yeah, like the use of code words and things like that once they started realizing the groups were being shut down. Yeah, just stopped using particular words.

Daniel

So your underlying health sounds like it's getting better. But are there any triggers that you come across that can give you some sort of relapse?

Michelle

No, I'm back at the gym now. I've been back this sort of full year. And still, I'm still like, working on getting back to sort of my full strength. But in terms of I don't, I don't think about it anymore. Like I'm not. It's taken probably two years to get to the point where I'm actually not looking at my heart, you know, my watch to see what my heart rate's at or thinking, don't push too hard or, you know, I might have a heart attack. Like I don't think like that anymore at all, which is great. Yeah, I can go up and down stairs all day, which is great. That's something I don't take for granted anymore because the most severe pain was coming from the stairs. Like as soon as I walked up and I, I live in a three story house and my studio is three stories. So I was not having a good time during that time. So I still avoid caffeine. And I still, I mean, I'm, I pretty much just I think I have an a full blown allergy to alcohol. So I just don't, I just don't drink alcohol at all. So I just avoid stimulants in general. But other than that, no, like foods, I don't have any issues with. None of the supplements that Steph has given me recently, I've had any issues with, which is great. So yeah.

Daniel

So Steph, where do we go with long term therapies? We I'm sure if there's some sort of modified anti inflammatory diet, that will be long-term. What about long-term supplements? What's your thinking?

Steph

Yeah, I think also the issue for Michelle, because of the huge amount of stress that she went through, and we see this a lot in vaccine-injured patients, her hormones went out of whack completely. So she developed quite significant perimenopause symptoms when they weren't really on the cards prior to the vaccine injury. And so, you know, even though Michelle has been able to train, you know, work, you know, do all the things that she wasn't able to do, we're now sort of still trading and supporting that hormonal dysfunction in the body and helping the body and the mitochondrial still to recover long term and sort of future proof you for anything else that could future proof you for things that could come your way. So like other, you know, COVID infections or any other triggers for the body. Yeah.

Daniel

Yeah. Great. Well, great work, Steph. Well, guys, that's and just the last bit for me, Michelle and Steph, what do we tell people that have had a reaction? They're not sure their gut feeling tells them that they have reacted adversely. Everyone tells them that's impossible. What do we say to them?

Michelle

I'm pretty radicalized now. Like, I'm like, everything's the COVID vaccine. I've gone the other way. It's probably not not good. But no, no, I the main thing that I say is that I think what Steph said to me at the start was like, I believe you and that there is, you know, there is help. And because I get so many people, especially when I do front facing interviews and stuff, you know, reaching out to me, my DMs and stuff all of the time. So yeah, the biggest bit of advice is, I sort of outline what has worked for me, but also that it's very complicated and these things might not work for you and to seek out a really good naturopath that is, you know, across vaccine injuries, which I'm assuming most of them are. I always pass on Steph's details. Like if you can get in front of Steph, that's always good. But yeah, I think that that point about being believed because most people, especially if they're coming to us now, which I've literally still get message. I got a message like two weeks ago. Doctors don't believe them still. They'll still be, you know, chipping him off. They're having all these tests. No, you're normal, you're normal, you know, all your your tests are coming back normal and they just think they're going crazy. So yeah. Yeah, just to be like, hey, trust your intuition and there is help out there and to sort of not give up and really, really advocate for yourself.

Daniel

Yeah. Is the Coverse group a good start for people?

Michelle

Yeah, definitely. There's an Instagram page, Coverse, actually, I think you should know the website. Let me find it right now.

Daniel

Okay.

Michelle

The Instagram page is just Coverse, but the website, I'll just find it, it'll just be coverse.com.au. Not Converse.

Daniel

Why? We'll all be in new shoes before we know it.

Michelle

Why is it not finding it? All right, let me just go to the Instagram page.

Daniel

That's okay. While you're doing that, Steph, how do people get in touch with you? What's the name of your clinic?

Steph

So we're called Merge Health. So we're a virtual integrative and functional medicine clinic in Merge Health. Melbourne. So we have a team of integrative doctors, naturopaths and health coaches that will support you.

Daniel

Okay. Is it mergehealth.com.au?

Steph

Yep. Just go to the website. You can fill out a form. Yep. Get in touch with us or message us on Instagram. Yeah. @mergehealth. That's it. Or meet me personally @stephgadsden.

Daniel

And whereabouts in Melbourne are you?

Steph

So we're in Richmond.

Daniel

Okay.

Steph

Yeah. So pretty central. Yeah.

Michelle

Yes, I found the website.

Daniel

Okay.

Michelle

So it's coverse.org.au and it's C-O-V-E-R-S-E. And there's an Instagram page which is just Coverse AU.

Daniel

So that's a good starting point for people because so many people just don't know where to go with this. So that's great.

Michelle

Yeah, that's great. And then C step #2.

Daniel

Yeah, good. Guys, you have been brave and remarkable, and I am eternally grateful for your input. And I'm sure there's a lot of people that would love to listen to what you had to say and help with their own health. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you, thanks for having us. We'll connect again another time.

Michelle

Great, thank you. Thank you.

Audio file

Covid Vaccine Recovery.mp3

Transcript

Hello, Michelle, and hello, Steph.

Hello, thanks for having us. Hey.

Absolute pleasure. This is a topic that's fairly close to my heart. I've been involved in reactions to COVID vaccination for some time now. And so for me, it's really interesting to have this conversation. And part of the interest and why I'm really delighted to have you on, Michelle, and Steph, of course, but Michelle particularly, because Through my work, so many people have reported reactions. So many practitioners, doctors and naturopaths have seen patients with all sorts of reactions to the COVID vaccine. And I've been in online forums where so many people have had reactions. But to get them to come and talk online is a different story. There's a real fear about exposing themselves. And I'm wondering if I could get your thoughts as to why that is, Michelle.

Oh, that's a great question. I think I also had that fear initially, I think especially being someone in the music industry and the sort of very strong opinions of a lot of people around the COVID vaccine during COVID and how much it was pushed, particularly in our industry, because I guess it was sold to us as the thing that was going to get us back. So you need to do this because otherwise we can't have our industry back. So there was a really, really strong push. And anyone that sort of went against the grain were completely isolated and mocked and ridiculed, to be honest. And I saw a lot of that. I actually had a lot of friends that remained unvaccinated and I saw what they went through and how hard it was for them. And so, yeah, when sort of something happened to me, I was very hesitant to talk about it. for a long time, actually. I don't even think I went public. Gosh, it was over six months and it would've been, and it probably was when I had my relapse, which was sort of almost a year into it that I really started talking about it and was like, basically because I thought, I think this is the thing that means I'm gonna lose my career anyway because I was so unwell and I was like, sort of like, I've got nothing left to lose, so I might as well talk about it. And it was sort of ironic because it was like the thing that I did to get my career back and to start working again because I was so desperate to get back to my job and my career because it's my whole life. It's everything to me. It's my purpose. It's the reason that I get up in the morning and I was so desperate to get that back. So when that was taken away from me because of my health, It was absolutely devastating. So yeah, I was like, well, if I'm going to lose my career, yeah, stuff it. Here we go. I just might as well.

Have a go. And you're a photographer.

I'm a photographer, yes. So I've been shooting in the music industry for 15 years now. And a lot of what I do or had been doing, especially up until COVID when we were shut down for so long, but I was touring like I was on the road for sometimes six or seven months at a time or all around the world. And my job is physical. Like the one of the biggest symptoms that I had was I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs. And I don't know if you've been to many music venues, but especially bigger ones, there's a lot of stairs and up and down and up and down, off and off stage, up and off stage and like carrying things, carrying my backpack. So I wasn't able to do a lot of those things at the start. So it really restricted my physical ability and that was even my fitness. Like I've been able, you know, I've been going to the gym and being fit my entire life. So having that taken away from me and not being able to exercise and stuff like that was, yeah, essentially my whole life was completely changed.

Yeah, yeah. When I was a student, I used to work in music venues as a student job. And I actually do remember the equipment that the photographers used to lug around in the boxes, the cartons, oh my God. Yeah, totally.

So you need to be physically. And I think that's one thing now is like, I really don't take that for granted. Like everything that I'm doing now that I'm well is around. getting as strong and fit and healthy as possible just for longevity. So yeah.

Okay. And so do you think the fear of talking about reactions to the COVID vaccine are mainly from people within your peer group or your profession or colleagues or from the medical profession who have gaslighted a lot of people?

I think my individual fear was from the industry. Like I felt like people wouldn't want to work with me or friends would stop talking to me or other, you know, acquaintances essentially. And I think there was a little bit of that. I think there was definitely people that just stopped engaging with me. But to be honest, it was quite the opposite. Like I actually had a lot of people reach out and you know, say that they had had similar reactions and were really scared to talk out as well. And so there was also a little bit of a sense of a new community of people that felt, okay, there's a few of us here and they felt comfort in the fact that I was able to speak publicly, even though a lot of them chose to remain not to. So, but in terms of the medical industry and what happened to us, Yeah, I guess gaslighting is probably a good, good word. I don't know if it's gaslighting or just complete denial or I actually don't know. It'd be really interesting to talk to someone that was in it and then maybe came around at some point because I know just the language that, you know, was used with us. It was a lot of a lot of similar words in terms of, this is just anxiety. This is just in your head. Yep. You know, that sort of thing. I was turned away. I was just telling Steph that one of my most triggering moments is when I was turned away from hospital the third time that I had presented. And the nurse said to me, she said, you should seek therapy for your anxiety issues. And she just sent me away on the street. And I just said to Steph, you know, it felt like she thought I was crazy. And that's, I don't know, that's obviously a big trigger for me, for somebody thinking that I'm crazy. I think I'm very sane and like very level headed. And I'm like, I don't like, I don't have big outbursts of emotions and stuff like that. So that was terrifying to be just like, oh, she doesn't believe me and she's just sending me out on the street at my most vulnerable moment. So yeah.

Steph, how are you?

Yeah, good, thanks.

Yeah, thank you for agreeing to come on today.

No problem.

Steph, you're a naturopath. And in your experience, have you come across many people that have had some sort of reaction to the COVID vaccines?

Yes, so... My background's in chronic fatigue syndrome and MCAS and chronic infection. So when COVID hit and the vaccine mandates started, we were inundated actually with people with reactions to the vaccines. And because we'd been working with complex chronic illness for, you know, 10 or 12 years before, and my personal story is with chronic fatigue and POTS. So a lot of the people presenting were presenting sort of like a chronic fatigue syndrome case and were reaching out to us. And that was old patients who had previously recovered from, you know, CFS and managing their symptoms really well. And then there was a whole bunch of new people, such as Michelle, who had really never been unwell before and all of a sudden, you know, lost their livelihood, their lives. completely turned upside down after the COVID vaccine.

So do you see, and I think you did mention it, but do you see a significant similarity between COVID vaccine reactions and chronic conditions like CFS or chronic fatigue syndrome?

Yes, yeah, 100%. It's very similar, the presentation. Obviously, there's some differences and nuances, but that complex chronic patient or that complex chronic illness, it looks very similar. There's a lot of mast cell issues, there's a lot of inflammation, it's multi-system, so people are presenting with many different symptoms that it's not all the same. Obviously, there's the cardiovascular symptoms as well, lots of autonomic dysfunction, so the autonomic nervous system's, you know, completely gone haywire. So yes, very, very similar in terms of the presentation. Yeah.

Yeah. And without getting too technical, do you think there's similarities around mitochondrial activity?

Yes. Yeah, definitely. And a big treatment for us when we're treating people with long backs is trying to recover the mitochondria as well. Yeah.

Okay. So are you differentiating between long vax and long COVID, or do you throw them all into one basket?

So in the beginning it was easier to differentiate because no one had had COVID and everyone had had the vaccine. So you could sort of see the the picture quite clearly. Now it's all messed up. So, you know, you've got people with long, long vax and long COVID or and other chronic infections and chronic like it's all It's getting harder and harder, I think, to differentiate.

Yeah. Okay, thanks. So Michelle, this podcast is called A Patient Story because we're interested in what happened to the patient, the person. And so I'd be interested in just discussing your case with a few more details, if that's okay. So you were under some duress, under some pressure to get the COVID vaccine. Were you a willing recipient or did you have to go in kicking and screaming?

I was somewhere in the middle, to be honest. I wasn't, I was, the willingness part was just to get my life back and to get, I couldn't see another way out, let's put it that way. And I know there was a friend of mine that I, we toured together and I basically talked him into getting, he was very hesitant and I talked him into getting the vaccine because I was like, I can't see a way where we'll be able to tour again. Like, I just thought that that was going to be our lives forever. Like the vaccine passport thing was going to be eternal. Like, I think it's so stupid now, but I guess when you've been locked in your house for two years, it does things to your brain and your critical thinking skills. But to be honest, I'd also listened to a couple of podcasts of people that I really respect who were definitely asking questions and just being a bit like, hmm, this, could be an issue. So originally I was scheduled to get the Pfizer vaccine in July of 2021. And my husband and I had a discussion after we heard this one particular podcast. And I was like, let's just push it back. Like, let's just see, surely if there's a big signal and there's lots of people getting sick, like, we'll hear about it and they'll stop it. And you know, like, just so naive, like, that's how my brain worked. I was like, The government would never do this to us. And so, yeah, I was just like, let's just wait. And then it got to a point where it was like, yeah, we just weren't able to enter work sites. So my husband needed it. He was working at an organisation at the time, which he had to have it to enter the building. And for me, as a freelance photographer, I needed it to enter studios. So they were starting to ask, anytime that you were booked for a job, can you please show us your vaccine status? So it just got to a point where like, you know, starting to be booked for jobs again, and then I wouldn't be able to do these jobs if I wasn't vaccinated. So, yeah, I guess you would call that coercion.

I remember at the time there's a lot of discussion around which vaccine people would choose the AstraZeneca, the Pfizer, the Moderna, you know, so on.

That was definitely I remember also being relieved that we were going to be eligible for Pfizer because of the issues that we'd heard from AstraZeneca.

Right.

So you were like, oh, yeah, cool. I'm so glad we're, you know, my husband and I were both eligible for that. So let's book in for that. And we ended up getting it in September of 2021.

Okay. So you went in, you got the vaccine. What happened then?

So it was about five days late or four. So I got it on a Monday and by the Friday I started to have I had my first sort of like panic attack, which is what I was calling them at the time. And I went home and I was sort of out at the post office and I went home and I called my husband and I said, something really weird is happening. And that was sort of the start of the many of these panic attack type feelings that I was having. And then the chest pain started. And so that night, I actually couldn't sleep because the chest pain was so bad. It was like stabbing chest pain. And I messaged a friend of mine who worked at ER. And I just said, what should I do? And she said, just go into the hospital. They'll check you out. And if you worry, just go in. And so I did. And I had-- the doctor I saw was actually really great. And he was like, we're seeing a lot of people coming in after Pfizer that are presenting with this chest pain. They did a blood test, and I think they were looking for. Is it troponin levels that they look for? I think it's raised troponin levels. I think that's what it's called, where it's some type of enzyme or something in the heart. So yeah, you know, do you have this myocarditis? And he's like, you don't have that. And you know he that it was always like that happens to young males, anyway. So anytime I presented they were sort of like. you don't fit the profile. Actually, they actually said that to me one time, like that you don't fit the profile. But I kept presenting with this, like very, very severe and very concerning chest pain. Like, I can't really explain to you what it feels like, but it felt like to me, I was having a heart attack. So I was getting more and more concerned that it kept happening. And then the sort of a couple of weeks passed, and I was getting ready for my second one. Oh, actually, I should mention when they discharged me the first time, the doctor that discharged me said he pulled me into this room, and he like closed the curtain, and he was like. you know, everyone's really anxious about Covid, and he's like, you need to get your second shot. Covid is really serious, and You know, you're just feeling a lot of anxiety around this. This is what this is and make sure you get your second. He was sort of like really chastising me. And I was like, that's really weird because I wasn't not considering getting it. I was, and I hadn't said anything to the tune of that. I was just like presenting with this issue that nobody could sort of help me with.

So when you first got the vaccine on the Monday, on the Friday, you started getting panic attacks. Can you describe what you were feeling in the general term of panic attack? What was that like for you?

Yeah, so it felt like a rush of like adrenaline that just doesn't subside for hours, like hours. And it comes in waves. And it gets to the point where like I'd be physically shaking, my legs would be shaking. my heart rate's through the roof and I'm just being dumped with adrenaline and over and over and over again. And it's like a night, it's like the worst feeling you can possibly feel.

And.

So I was having these along with the chest pain, obviously the chest pain was like crippling, you know, almost nine out of 10 chest pain. Like it was so concerning.

Did it affect your breathing?

No, other than like my heart rate was, it felt like it would just skyrocket out of the blue. So I could just be sitting here and then all of a sudden I noticed it just started going haywire and nothing had happened. It would just all of a sudden just skyrocket or the worst really was when I would sleep. So I'd go to bed and sometimes I would get to sleep. But if I got up to go to the toilet or something in the night and try to sleep, then that would a panic attack would happen. My heart would be pounding. It'd be like every everything was just out of whack.

Michelle, would you think that was a adrenaline sort of reaction that was happening in the middle of the night? I'm sorry, I meant to say Stefan, not Michelle, but that's.

I don't even know. I think I know MCAS people talk about those adrenaline dumps, but I don't know if it's actually an MCAS thing or.

I think it's an interplay between that and the nervous system, but it was typical. Most patients who are presenting with the vaccine injury would describe it pretty similar to how Michelle has described it as these adrenaline dumps or adrenaline surges. And they would describe it as this massive rush of like felt like adrenaline surging through their bodies that would either result in panic or increased in heart rate or tachycardia or those sorts of things.

And would it be common for people to get the same symptoms at night? Because, you know, there's some unusual adrenaline activity for people often, even without vaccination at two or three o'clock in the morning. I'm just wondering if it's an exacerbation of that typical exhaustion, adrenal type of response.

Yeah, yeah, I think that was common, but not always. I think that it was quite random. A lot for a lot of patients for you definitely was at night time was the after eight stop.

So I was getting reactions or supplements.

Yes.

So I was taking stuff and then it would happen.

Yes.

So I was connecting it to food a lot, but the night time it seemed to me to be connected to when maybe like an autonomic thing because if I got up and then tried to sleep again, like there was something about the getting up and then going back to sleep that triggered it as well. So I don't know, it was all over the place. It was like a nightmare. Like it was honestly a nightmare.

Yes.

Yeah. Michelle, you seem to be quite knowledgeable about your own health and health generally. Is this something that you've learned about? See your reaction or have you always had a comprehension of health in your body?

No, I think I was health conscious, but like not. I mean, I did a sports science degree, so I'd like I knew the basics. But in terms of like what I went through, I think most of us that are vaccine injured, like most of us feel like we've got some type of degree in something now, like the things that we know. I remember seeing a friend, my mum's friend who has long COVID, and obviously there's such crossover. And she was just like so shocked at the things that I knew and was telling her friend, you know, have you tried this? And I was like, yeah, we've had to be because like, no, there was such lack of information that the community had to really get really knowledgeable, like a lot of the stuff that we know we've had to learn amongst ourselves. And obviously the the few practitioners that we were able to find that could help in that, especially early on. I really think it was naturopaths that were out there waving the flag because nobody else would touch it, really. They just didn't want to have a bar of it.

Well, you know, funny story. I gave a couple of webinars back in those days and very well attended, literally thousands of practitioners attending two webinars. But all the doctors that booked in said, we want to listen to what you've got to say, but don't use our name. Can we use a fake name when we register? And I thought, oh, what a terrible indictment on the health system if people are too scared to use their own name.

I mean, that really happened. That sort of happened, that sort of communication, like when I went to try and get an exemption from the booster and my GP at the time was like, Do not get another vaccine. She's like, I, she, this is what she said to me. She's like, I think it will kill you. Do not get another vaccine. She said, but I can't write you an exemption because I will lose my license.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. You mentioned earlier, Michelle, that you also reacted to food. Was there specific foods that affected you or just general eating?

It probably, it's hard to know at the time because I felt like I was reacting to everything. But at that time, that's sort of the time I started seeing Steph and we did sort of an anti-inflammatory diet at that point, which immediately stopped that panic.

Good.

So I think I was probably reacting to gluten, to dairy, to all the things that we sort of had cut like tea we cut out and a few of the supplements that I guess we will react. I was reacting to at the time. I remember I tried beef liver and that was probably the worst panic attack I had.

Wow.

So we had to be really, and then when we introduced stuff, Steph would be like, okay, you need to take like a quarter of like this. I had to split tablets up and like go really, really easy. And then we would like slowly, slowly increase doses and stuff like that. So, but yeah, the anti-inflammatory diet, that's the thing that I tell everybody, if you've done nothing else, like do that to start with, because it really, it really calmed down the most acute and probably the the stuff that was causing me the most distress at the time.

Steph, what is an anti-inflammatory diet?

Yeah, so we started Michelle on a gluten and dairy free diet. We also did a low histamine diet as well. and taking out some of the food triggers, you weren't really having caffeine, but you're having tea, weren't you? So we took out anything that was going to stimulate the fight flight response too much because she was already, that was already happening quite a lot. And then just basic whole foods really. And the other key thing with Michelle and a lot of people who have this autonomic dysfunction is that blood sugar dysregulation happens as well. And so it's really about, you know, making sure there's no sort of triggers from the environment or the food that's going to launch that autonomic nervous system into this chaotic state. Yeah.

And so what would a typical breakfast look like in lunch and dinner while you're there?

Yeah. So what were you eating for breakfast, Michelle?

Gosh, I can't even remember. I've got to go back in time. No, but that's the other thing now is like, I've gone into perimenopause and I feel like I can't. Which is really bad. That's what we're working on now.

Okay, that's okay. I'll push you too hard.

I'm like trying to reach back to go where I was and I literally can't remember.

An anti-inflammatory diet, I guess, Steph, is mainly vegetables.

Yeah, fruit and veg and a good quality protein. I think with the low histamine, you have to be mindful of some of the high histamine foods like fish and eggs can be problematic for some people. Avocado, a lot of people have a lot of avocado on their breakfast. Like just the benign things that you're eating all the time could be quite triggering in those early stages if you've got an MCAS presentation. So just removing some of those foods and supporting the body to be able to deal with that load better.

Okay, so MCAS stands for Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, and it's certainly something that's been talked about a lot more in the last few years, where histamine and mast cells take over the body and reactions fairly unchecked for those people. Do you think that MCAS has been further activated from the COVID vaccine or do you think it's more of a societal environmental type of issue?

I think it's both and, but definitely post the COVID vaccine and post this sort of COVID period, we have seen it dramatically increase like crazy amounts. And I think there's a few reasons to that. Like we obviously know COVID and the COVID vaccine has an impact on histamine and the mast cells. And for Michelle, I think that even though you were so well pretty much your whole life, there was this sort of underlying mast cell activation. You know, Michelle had a history of... endometriosis and...

Alcohol intolerance.

Alcohol intolerance. You'd had previous reactions to medications.

And yeah, and caffeine I've always been sensitive to as well.

Yes, and so there was sort of this picture, but Michelle, you know, you're pretty health conscious, pretty active.

You know, I just want to avoid those things. Like, no, I don't drink caffeine, I don't drink alcohol. And yeah, I never, I obviously didn't put two and two together, but I... would just avoid the things that I felt like were triggers. But I didn't have a name for it. I didn't know what it was MCAS was or anything like that. So it wasn't until this happened and Steph sort of explained that there was sort of obviously an underlying thing and it just obviously triggered it into chaos.

Yeah. Steph, my understanding of MCAS is a lot of a lot of it starts in the gut. And is that where a lot of your focus would be? Healing the intestine.

Yeah, we did a lot of gut work, but for Michelle, you know, she couldn't tolerate anything in the beginning. Like we were doing topical creams. So, you know, a lot of Michelle's vitamins that support helping with MCAS or methylation were low, like B12 and folate. And you did have a high whole blood histamine and some of the other markers. So we did mainly topicals for ages, didn't we? And like tiny drop doses, like it was very, just trying to calm Everett, to calm Michelle down and stabilize her system. And that worked really well. And you got, and also the nervous system work and breath work.

Breath work, meditation, grounding, sunlight, like that was really instrumental, I think, in the healing part. And I think also something that a lot of people maybe don't put enough weight into. Like if I had to comment on maybe why Actually, it's hard to tell because a lot of people do those things as well. But I was like religious with that stuff like and red light therapy I was doing every single day. We bought a grounding sheet for my bed. We bought a sauna during that time. You were doing all the things. My husband's very health conscious as well. So he was like on board. He's like, what are we doing? We're doing all. But yeah, and I also like just noted When I would get out in the environment, for example, I live near the beach. There were times where if I had a panic attack, my husband would take me to the beach and put me in the water, and it would just immediately calm everything down. So just being able to notice those types of things, or if I did breathwork, being able to actually calm myself down and how much of an impact that had, I think just gave me a bit of a sense of control, like there's little things that I can do myself. if I'm in these states that can bring everything down to sort of baseline for a little while. So that gave me a lot of relief.

Last time I went for a swim in Victoria, the water was so cold it took my breath away completely.

Yes, well that is still the case. Thankfully when this is happening was like, most of it was like the height of summer. So that was the only time you'll see me in the water.

Fair enough. All of this happened presumably before you had your second shot.

No.

The work with Steph.

It happened. And I would say the majority of this actually happened after the second shot. So I think I sort of tricked myself into thinking things had calmed down. I'm fine. I've just got to get this second shot and then my life will go back to normal. I just sort of was like, I've got to do it. And then that's sort of when all hell broke loose. Like that was the biggest mistake was getting that second shot, I think.

So I guess it was kind of nerve-wracking going for the second shot in some ways, given that one of your previous GPs had said, don't do it.

No, that was for the booster. Oh, that was for the booster. Yeah, I hadn't seen a GP by that point. I did see my GP a little while after the second shot, which is when I really started to presenting to hospital. Everything went crazy. Like a lot of those symptoms just ramped up to 100 panic attacks. I was having like 7 eight a day. I didn't start seeing Steph until after the second shot. And don't worry, I did not get a booster. But my GP actually was, I went, I presented to her and she could see how distressed I was. And she's like, I've never seen you like this before. Like, why are you like this? And I said, this is just since I got the vaccine. And she just sort of dismissed it and was like, well, it's not the vaccine. You must be stressed about something. And she tried to prescribe me anti-anxiety medication. And I was like, there's no way I'm going on anti-anxiety medication. I know that's not what this is. And I just, I mean, I just never went back to her after that, so.

Yeah. Okay, Steph, we've talked about diet and can you just step us through any supplements or supplement regime that you considered for Michelle?

Yes, all of the things.

Yeah, I guess it's like any... person, you're treating the whole person. And I think that's where naturopaths really thrive in helping people with vaccine injury because you're looking holistically. So we, from Michelle's blood work, you know, like I mentioned, she had. low B vitamins, she had high histamine, she had poor liver detox pathways. So we're slowly trying to support those. And we first started just with compounded cream. So like a pyrrol primer cream to get the B6 and zinc in, B12 and folate. We also started with some trying some vitamin C and some mast cell stabilizing support and anything that we could get into Michelle that she could tolerate some quercetin when we could, but we couldn't tolerate that straight away. We even tried some H1 blockers as well, pharmaceuticals, and they were quite helpful for calming down the panic and adrenaline surges, melatonin as well. Obviously, melatonin is very antihistamine and supports sleep. And what else did we use? We, and then we sort of staged it over time until you could like fully tolerate actual oral supplementation. We even did topical glutathione because Michelle couldn't, couldn't take any detox support orally.

That spray made my skin beautiful though. That was a bonus.

That was a bonus. Yeah. And then eventually for Michelle also, we looked, you know, there were some other, what we commonly see with the vax, long vax, is that it can reactivate other infections. And so we did see some other infections underneath the surface, but we could never really get to them because Michelle was so reactive. And so it was really just about making sure you were stable with antihistamine support and natural antihistamines for replenishing the body. supporting the HPA access and then eventually we were able to, and recovering the gut, eventually we were able to get some sort of antimicrobials or support in there to treat the other underlying infections.

Yeah.

Yeah. What sort of timeline on average would you think is relevant for a lot of people to start to feel better?

So Michelle started feeling better within about three months with the diet and just getting the creams on, which was awesome. You got quite, you know, we dampened down that response quite quickly. And then we're going tracking along pretty well.

You can describe it. You had a big, I had a big relapse. Yeah. So I guess I got a little bit ahead of myself thinking, I'm fine, I'm back to normal. And I sort of threw myself back into work. And then I had a massive relapse with a big wake up call. And so I had a relapse and I had an overseas trip planned and not a holiday, a work trip, which was very important to me. And I just convinced myself that I was going to be okay. And I just wasn't okay. And being away from home when you're unwell is just, I do not recommend. So immediately, like the flight really took it out of me. I remember calling Steph when I landed the first night because then the adrenaline dump stuff started again, I couldn't sleep, it was like the panic stuff started. And I couldn't walk upstairs again. And I was in America. I just don't recommend being away. And every time I was flying, because I've had quite a few flights cross country on that trip, and I was having panic attacks on the flight. I thought I was going to die on a plane. I'd convinced myself. I'm like, I'm going to die on a plane. I called Steph crying one day. She's like, you're not going to die. She was like, my therapist. So yeah, and then we got home and I basically then just took three months off and was like, I just need to focus on getting better. Like nothing is more important than just, you know, getting well and sort of started all over again. And then, you know, from that point, I just, the reintroduction back into work and stuff, I just took it so slow. Like it was just like baby steps. I'm like, I'm not risking This being a chronic condition, which I've seen a lot of in the vaccine in your community, relapses or chronic pericarditis, or I just didn't want that. Actually around that time was when I eventually got my pericarditis diagnosis 'cause I couldn't, everyone kept telling me it wasn't like the cardiologist I saw originally that it wasn't. And I ended up seeing this, another cardiologist who just said, you're presenting exactly like everything that we've seen, which I guess was very validating, but from a treatment perspective, and this is what Steph said as well, we're still treating it the same. It didn't really change anything. It just for me validated what I was feeling from the very start. Like I was like, it just feels like this to me. Like I could literally feel it. So that was really validating, but then I guess the treatment with Steph was just like, we're continuing doing what we're doing. And then it's just been a very slow, gradual improvement to what I consider now is pretty much full health.

Yeah, that's great. Michelle, you mentioned a few times that you're involved with the vaccine damage community. Can you just talk to me a little bit about the community so people that are listening to this podcast know that there's friends out there, friends in there.

I mean, first and foremost, it was like the sort of the Facebook groups was like what popped up during COVID, like little communities of people finding each other, which is a little bit fraught because we the groups would keep getting shut down. We're being very heavily censored, even trying to talk amongst ourselves just to try and get help. But so then we started talking in code words and trying to keep the groups alive. And but there was a lot of people that We were just all helping ourselves. Actually, it was a person within the vaccine in your community that sort of pointed me to the fact that it could have been an MCAS thing in which I told Steph after a particular situation, I had taken a Zyrtec and you were like, oh, if that works, then this is a picture for you sort of thing. So there was like lots of different people. people that could just give a little, like a little link, but then you can take, you know, to someone else and be like, Can you help me with this? But yeah, so and then now I'm involved with a group called Coverse, which is a science led and also patient led support group of people that have been vaccine injured. And obviously, you know, the group is the there for information and also to sort of lobby government into what could be done better and things like that as well.

Are they a US based group?

No, we're Australian based group.

Okay, fantastic.

A group in America called React 19. So it's very similar.

That's right. Yeah, yep, yep. Okay. No, I know I've tried to publish a few podcasts where COVID-19 and People have had various issues and we haven't made it through the censors often. It's kind of remarkable that it's still being censored so heavily.

Yeah. And so like, it's a bit, obviously it's a bit better now, but at the time, like nothing was getting through. Like it was just impossible. Like everything was just so heavily censored. It's amazing that people actually found each other during that time. So it was, I guess, yeah, like the use of code words and things like that once they started realizing the groups were being shut down. Yeah, just stopped using particular words.

So your underlying health sounds like it's getting better. But are there any triggers that you come across that can give you some sort of relapse?

No, I'm back at the gym now. I've been back this sort of full year. And still, I'm still like, working on getting back to sort of my full strength. But in terms of I don't, I don't think about it anymore. Like I'm not. It's taken probably two years to get to the point where I'm actually not looking at my heart, you know, my watch to see what my heart rate's at or thinking, don't push too hard or, you know, I might have a heart attack. Like I don't think like that anymore at all, which is great. Yeah, I can go up and down stairs all day, which is great. That's something I don't take for granted anymore because the most severe pain was coming from the stairs. Like as soon as I walked up and I, I live in a three story house and my studio is three stories. So I was not having a good time during that time. So I still avoid caffeine. And I still, I mean, I'm, I pretty much just I think I have an a full blown allergy to alcohol. So I just don't, I just don't drink alcohol at all. So I just avoid stimulants in general. But other than that, no, like foods, I don't have any issues with. None of the supplements that Steph has given me recently, I've had any issues with, which is great. So yeah.

So Steph, where do we go with long term therapies? We I'm sure if there's some sort of modified anti inflammatory diet, that will be long-term. What about long-term supplements? What's your thinking?

Yeah, I think also the issue for Michelle, because of the huge amount of stress that she went through, and we see this a lot in vaccine-injured patients, her hormones went out of whack completely. So she developed quite significant perimenopause symptoms when they weren't really on the cards prior to the vaccine injury. And so, you know, even though Michelle has been able to train, you know, work, you know, do all the things that she wasn't able to do, we're now sort of still trading and supporting that hormonal dysfunction in the body and helping the body and the mitochondrial still to recover long term and sort of future proof you for anything else that could future proof you for things that could come your way. So like other, you know, COVID infections or any other triggers for the body. Yeah.

Yeah. Great. Well, great work, Steph. Well, guys, that's and just the last bit for me, Michelle and Steph, what do we tell people that have had a reaction? They're not sure their gut feeling tells them that they have reacted adversely. Everyone tells them that's impossible. What do we say to them?

I'm pretty radicalized now. Like, I'm like, everything's the COVID vaccine. I've gone the other way. It's probably not not good. But no, no, I the main thing that I say is that I think what Steph said to me at the start was like, I believe you and that there is, you know, there is help. And because I get so many people, especially when I do front facing interviews and stuff, you know, reaching out to me, my DMs and stuff all of the time. So yeah, the biggest bit of advice is, I sort of outline what has worked for me, but also that it's very complicated and these things might not work for you and to seek out a really good naturopath that is, you know, across vaccine injuries, which I'm assuming most of them are. I always pass on Steph's details. Like if you can get in front of Steph, that's always good. But yeah, I think that that point about being believed because most people, especially if they're coming to us now, which I've literally still get message. I got a message like two weeks ago. Doctors don't believe them still. They'll still be, you know, chipping him off. They're having all these tests. No, you're normal, you're normal, you know, all your your tests are coming back normal and they just think they're going crazy. So yeah. Yeah, just to be like, hey, trust your intuition and there is help out there and to sort of not give up and really, really advocate for yourself.

Yeah. Is the Coverse group a good start for people?

Yeah, definitely. There's an Instagram page, Coverse, actually, I think you should know the website. Let me find it right now.

Okay.

The Instagram page is just Coverse, but the website, I'll just find it, it'll just be coverse.com.au. Not Converse.

Why? We'll all be in new shoes before we know it.

Why is it not finding it? All right, let me just go to the Instagram page.

That's okay. While you're doing that, Steph, how do people get in touch with you? What's the name of your clinic?

So we're called Merge Health. So we're a virtual integrative and functional medicine clinic in Merge Health. Melbourne. So we have a team of integrative doctors, naturopaths and health coaches that will support you.

Okay. Is it mergehealth.com.au?

Yep. Just go to the website. You can fill out a form. Yep. Get in touch with us or message us on Instagram. Yeah. @mergehealth. That's it. Or meet me personally @stephgadsden.

And whereabouts in Melbourne are you?

So we're in Richmond.

Okay.

Yeah. So pretty central. Yeah.

Yes, I found the website.

Okay.

So it's coverse.org.au and it's C-O-V-E-R-S-E. And there's an Instagram page which is just Coverse AU.

So that's a good starting point for people because so many people just don't know where to go with this. So that's great.

Yeah, that's great. And then C step #2.

Yeah, good. Guys, you have been brave and remarkable, and I am eternally grateful for your input. And I'm sure there's a lot of people that would love to listen to what you had to say and help with their own health. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you, thanks for having us. We'll connect again another time.

Great, thank you. Thank you.

Audio file

Covid Vaccine Recovery.mp3

Transcript

DB

Hello, Michelle, and hello, Steph.

Michelle

Hello, thanks for having us. Hey.

DB

Absolute pleasure. This is a topic that's fairly close to my heart. I've been involved in reactions to COVID vaccination for some time now. And so for me, it's really interesting to have this conversation. And part of the interest and why I'm really delighted to have you on, Michelle, and Steph, of course, but Michelle particularly, because Through my work, so many people have reported reactions. So many practitioners, doctors and naturopaths have seen patients with all sorts of reactions to the COVID vaccine. And I've been in online forums where so many people have had reactions. But to get them to come and talk online is a different story. There's a real fear about exposing themselves. And I'm wondering if I could get your thoughts as to why that is, Michelle.

Michelle

Oh, that's a great question. I think I also had that fear initially, I think especially being someone in the music industry and the sort of very strong opinions of a lot of people around the COVID vaccine during COVID and how much it was pushed, particularly in our industry, because I guess it was sold to us as the thing that was going to get us back. So you need to do this because otherwise we can't have our industry back. So there was a really, really strong push. And anyone that sort of went against the grain were completely isolated and mocked and ridiculed, to be honest. And I saw a lot of that. I actually had a lot of friends that remained unvaccinated and I saw what they went through and how hard it was for them. And so, yeah, when sort of something happened to me, I was very hesitant to talk about it. for a long time, actually. I don't even think I went public. Gosh, it was over six months and it would've been, and it probably was when I had my relapse, which was sort of almost a year into it that I really started talking about it and was like, basically because I thought, I think this is the thing that means I'm gonna lose my career anyway because I was so unwell and I was like, sort of like, I've got nothing left to lose, so I might as well talk about it. And it was sort of ironic because it was like the thing that I did to get my career back and to start working again because I was so desperate to get back to my job and my career because it's my whole life. It's everything to me. It's my purpose. It's the reason that I get up in the morning and I was so desperate to get that back. So when that was taken away from me because of my health, It was absolutely devastating. So yeah, I was like, well, if I'm going to lose my career, yeah, stuff it. Here we go. I just might as well.

DB

Have a go. And you're a photographer.

Michelle

I'm a photographer, yes. So I've been shooting in the music industry for 15 years now. And a lot of what I do or had been doing, especially up until COVID when we were shut down for so long, but I was touring like I was on the road for sometimes six or seven months at a time or all around the world. And my job is physical. Like the one of the biggest symptoms that I had was I couldn't walk up a flight of stairs. And I don't know if you've been to many music venues, but especially bigger ones, there's a lot of stairs and up and down and up and down, off and off stage, up and off stage and like carrying things, carrying my backpack. So I wasn't able to do a lot of those things at the start. So it really restricted my physical ability and that was even my fitness. Like I've been able, you know, I've been going to the gym and being fit my entire life. So having that taken away from me and not being able to exercise and stuff like that was, yeah, essentially my whole life was completely changed.

DB

Yeah, yeah. When I was a student, I used to work in music venues as a student job. And I actually do remember the equipment that the photographers used to lug around in the boxes, the cartons, oh my God. Yeah, totally.

Michelle

So you need to be physically. And I think that's one thing now is like, I really don't take that for granted. Like everything that I'm doing now that I'm well is around. getting as strong and fit and healthy as possible just for longevity. So yeah.

DB

Okay. And so do you think the fear of talking about reactions to the COVID vaccine are mainly from people within your peer group or your profession or colleagues or from the medical profession who have gaslighted a lot of people?

Michelle

I think my individual fear was from the industry. Like I felt like people wouldn't want to work with me or friends would stop talking to me or other, you know, acquaintances essentially. And I think there was a little bit of that. I think there was definitely people that just stopped engaging with me. But to be honest, it was quite the opposite. Like I actually had a lot of people reach out and you know, say that they had had similar reactions and were really scared to talk out as well. And so there was also a little bit of a sense of a new community of people that felt, okay, there's a few of us here and they felt comfort in the fact that I was able to speak publicly, even though a lot of them chose to remain not to. So, but in terms of the medical industry and what happened to us, Yeah, I guess gaslighting is probably a good, good word. I don't know if it's gaslighting or just complete denial or I actually don't know. It'd be really interesting to talk to someone that was in it and then maybe came around at some point because I know just the language that, you know, was used with us. It was a lot of a lot of similar words in terms of, this is just anxiety. This is just in your head. Yep. You know, that sort of thing. I was turned away. I was just telling Steph that one of my most triggering moments is when I was turned away from hospital the third time that I had presented. And the nurse said to me, she said, you should seek therapy for your anxiety issues. And she just sent me away on the street. And I just said to Steph, you know, it felt like she thought I was crazy. And that's, I don't know, that's obviously a big trigger for me, for somebody thinking that I'm crazy. I think I'm very sane and like very level headed. And I'm like, I don't like, I don't have big outbursts of emotions and stuff like that. So that was terrifying to be just like, oh, she doesn't believe me and she's just sending me out on the street at my most vulnerable moment. So yeah.

DB

Steph, how are you?

Steph

Yeah, good, thanks.

DB

Yeah, thank you for agreeing to come on today.

Steph

No problem.

DB

Steph, you're a naturopath. And in your experience, have you come across many people that have had some sort of reaction to the COVID vaccines?

Steph

Yes, so... My background's in chronic fatigue syndrome and MCAS and chronic infection. So when COVID hit and the vaccine mandates started, we were inundated actually with people with reactions to the vaccines. And because we'd been working with complex chronic illness for, you know, 10 or 12 years before, and my personal story is with chronic fatigue and POTS. So a lot of the people presenting were presenting sort of like a chronic fatigue syndrome case and were reaching out to us. And that was old patients who had previously recovered from, you know, CFS and managing their symptoms really well. And then there was a whole bunch of new people, such as Michelle, who had really never been unwell before and all of a sudden, you know, lost their livelihood, their lives. completely turned upside down after the COVID vaccine.

DB

So do you see, and I think you did mention it, but do you see a significant similarity between COVID vaccine reactions and chronic conditions like CFS or chronic fatigue syndrome?

Steph

Yes, yeah, 100%. It's very similar, the presentation. Obviously, there's some differences and nuances, but that complex chronic patient or that complex chronic illness, it looks very similar. There's a lot of mast cell issues, there's a lot of inflammation, it's multi-system, so people are presenting with many different symptoms that it's not all the same. Obviously, there's the cardiovascular symptoms as well, lots of autonomic dysfunction, so the autonomic nervous system's, you know, completely gone haywire. So yes, very, very similar in terms of the presentation. Yeah.

DB

Yeah. And without getting too technical, do you think there's similarities around mitochondrial activity?

Steph

Yes. Yeah, definitely. And a big treatment for us when we're treating people with long backs is trying to recover the mitochondria as well. Yeah.

DB

Okay. So are you differentiating between long vax and long COVID, or do you throw them all into one basket?

Steph

So in the beginning it was easier to differentiate because no one had had COVID and everyone had had the vaccine. So you could sort of see the the picture quite clearly. Now it's all messed up. So, you know, you've got people with long, long vax and long COVID or and other chronic infections and chronic like it's all It's getting harder and harder, I think, to differentiate.

DB

Yeah. Okay, thanks. So Michelle, this podcast is called A Patient Story because we're interested in what happened to the patient, the person. And so I'd be interested in just discussing your case with a few more details, if that's okay. So you were under some duress, under some pressure to get the COVID vaccine. Were you a willing recipient or did you have to go in kicking and screaming?

Michelle

I was somewhere in the middle, to be honest. I wasn't, I was, the willingness part was just to get my life back and to get, I couldn't see another way out, let's put it that way. And I know there was a friend of mine that I, we toured together and I basically talked him into getting, he was very hesitant and I talked him into getting the vaccine because I was like, I can't see a way where we'll be able to tour again. Like, I just thought that that was going to be our lives forever. Like the vaccine passport thing was going to be eternal. Like, I think it's so stupid now, but I guess when you've been locked in your house for two years, it does things to your brain and your critical thinking skills. But to be honest, I'd also listened to a couple of podcasts of people that I really respect who were definitely asking questions and just being a bit like, hmm, this, could be an issue. So originally I was scheduled to get the Pfizer vaccine in July of 2021. And my husband and I had a discussion after we heard this one particular podcast. And I was like, let's just push it back. Like, let's just see, surely if there's a big signal and there's lots of people getting sick, like, we'll hear about it and they'll stop it. And you know, like, just so naive, like, that's how my brain worked. I was like, The government would never do this to us. And so, yeah, I was just like, let's just wait. And then it got to a point where it was like, yeah, we just weren't able to enter work sites. So my husband needed it. He was working at an organisation at the time, which he had to have it to enter the building. And for me, as a freelance photographer, I needed it to enter studios. So they were starting to ask, anytime that you were booked for a job, can you please show us your vaccine status? So it just got to a point where like, you know, starting to be booked for jobs again, and then I wouldn't be able to do these jobs if I wasn't vaccinated. So, yeah, I guess you would call that coercion.

DB

I remember at the time there's a lot of discussion around which vaccine people would choose the AstraZeneca, the Pfizer, the Moderna, you know, so on.

Michelle

That was definitely I remember also being relieved that we were going to be eligible for Pfizer because of the issues that we'd heard from AstraZeneca.

DB

Right.

Michelle

So you were like, oh, yeah, cool. I'm so glad we're, you know, my husband and I were both eligible for that. So let's book in for that. And we ended up getting it in September of 2021.

DB

Okay. So you went in, you got the vaccine. What happened then?

Michelle

So it was about five days late or four. So I got it on a Monday and by the Friday I started to have I had my first sort of like panic attack, which is what I was calling them at the time. And I went home and I was sort of out at the post office and I went home and I called my husband and I said, something really weird is happening. And that was sort of the start of the many of these panic attack type feelings that I was having. And then the chest pain started. And so that night, I actually couldn't sleep because the chest pain was so bad. It was like stabbing chest pain. And I messaged a friend of mine who worked at ER. And I just said, what should I do? And she said, just go into the hospital. They'll check you out. And if you worry, just go in. And so I did. And I had-- the doctor I saw was actually really great. And he was like, we're seeing a lot of people coming in after Pfizer that are presenting with this chest pain. They did a blood test, and I think they were looking for. Is it troponin levels that they look for? I think it's raised troponin levels. I think that's what it's called, where it's some type of enzyme or something in the heart. So yeah, you know, do you have this myocarditis? And he's like, you don't have that. And you know he that it was always like that happens to young males, anyway. So anytime I presented they were sort of like. you don't fit the profile. Actually, they actually said that to me one time, like that you don't fit the profile. But I kept presenting with this, like very, very severe and very concerning chest pain. Like, I can't really explain to you what it feels like, but it felt like to me, I was having a heart attack. So I was getting more and more concerned that it kept happening. And then the sort of a couple of weeks passed, and I was getting ready for my second one. Oh, actually, I should mention when they discharged me the first time, the doctor that discharged me said he pulled me into this room, and he like closed the curtain, and he was like. you know, everyone's really anxious about Covid, and he's like, you need to get your second shot. Covid is really serious, and You know, you're just feeling a lot of anxiety around this. This is what this is and make sure you get your second. He was sort of like really chastising me. And I was like, that's really weird because I wasn't not considering getting it. I was, and I hadn't said anything to the tune of that. I was just like presenting with this issue that nobody could sort of help me with.

DB

So when you first got the vaccine on the Monday, on the Friday, you started getting panic attacks. Can you describe what you were feeling in the general term of panic attack? What was that like for you?

Michelle

Yeah, so it felt like a rush of like adrenaline that just doesn't subside for hours, like hours. And it comes in waves. And it gets to the point where like I'd be physically shaking, my legs would be shaking. my heart rate's through the roof and I'm just being dumped with adrenaline and over and over and over again. And it's like a night, it's like the worst feeling you can possibly feel.

DB

And.

Michelle

So I was having these along with the chest pain, obviously the chest pain was like crippling, you know, almost nine out of 10 chest pain. Like it was so concerning.

DB

Did it affect your breathing?

Michelle

No, other than like my heart rate was, it felt like it would just skyrocket out of the blue. So I could just be sitting here and then all of a sudden I noticed it just started going haywire and nothing had happened. It would just all of a sudden just skyrocket or the worst really was when I would sleep. So I'd go to bed and sometimes I would get to sleep. But if I got up to go to the toilet or something in the night and try to sleep, then that would a panic attack would happen. My heart would be pounding. It'd be like every everything was just out of whack.

DB

Michelle, would you think that was a adrenaline sort of reaction that was happening in the middle of the night? I'm sorry, I meant to say Stefan, not Michelle, but that's.

Michelle

I don't even know. I think I know MCAS people talk about those adrenaline dumps, but I don't know if it's actually an MCAS thing or.

Steph

I think it's an interplay between that and the nervous system, but it was typical. Most patients who are presenting with the vaccine injury would describe it pretty similar to how Michelle has described it as these adrenaline dumps or adrenaline surges. And they would describe it as this massive rush of like felt like adrenaline surging through their bodies that would either result in panic or increased in heart rate or tachycardia or those sorts of things.

DB

And would it be common for people to get the same symptoms at night? Because, you know, there's some unusual adrenaline activity for people often, even without vaccination at two or three o'clock in the morning. I'm just wondering if it's an exacerbation of that typical exhaustion, adrenal type of response.

Steph

Yeah, yeah, I think that was common, but not always. I think that it was quite random. A lot for a lot of patients for you definitely was at night time was the after eight stop.

Michelle

So I was getting reactions or supplements.

Steph

Yes.

Michelle

So I was taking stuff and then it would happen.

Steph

Yes.

Michelle

So I was connecting it to food a lot, but the night time it seemed to me to be connected to when maybe like an autonomic thing because if I got up and then tried to sleep again, like there was something about the getting up and then going back to sleep that triggered it as well. So I don't know, it was all over the place. It was like a nightmare. Like it was honestly a nightmare.

Steph

Yes.

DB

Yeah. Michelle, you seem to be quite knowledgeable about your own health and health generally. Is this something that you've learned about? See your reaction or have you always had a comprehension of health in your body?

Michelle

No, I think I was health conscious, but like not. I mean, I did a sports science degree, so I'd like I knew the basics. But in terms of like what I went through, I think most of us that are vaccine injured, like most of us feel like we've got some type of degree in something now, like the things that we know. I remember seeing a friend, my mum's friend who has long COVID, and obviously there's such crossover. And she was just like so shocked at the things that I knew and was telling her friend, you know, have you tried this? And I was like, yeah, we've had to be because like, no, there was such lack of information that the community had to really get really knowledgeable, like a lot of the stuff that we know we've had to learn amongst ourselves. And obviously the the few practitioners that we were able to find that could help in that, especially early on. I really think it was naturopaths that were out there waving the flag because nobody else would touch it, really. They just didn't want to have a bar of it.

DB

Well, you know, funny story. I gave a couple of webinars back in those days and very well attended, literally thousands of practitioners attending two webinars. But all the doctors that booked in said, we want to listen to what you've got to say, but don't use our name. Can we use a fake name when we register? And I thought, oh, what a terrible indictment on the health system if people are too scared to use their own name.

Michelle

I mean, that really happened. That sort of happened, that sort of communication, like when I went to try and get an exemption from the booster and my GP at the time was like, Do not get another vaccine. She's like, I, she, this is what she said to me. She's like, I think it will kill you. Do not get another vaccine. She said, but I can't write you an exemption because I will lose my license.

DB

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. You mentioned earlier, Michelle, that you also reacted to food. Was there specific foods that affected you or just general eating?

Michelle

It probably, it's hard to know at the time because I felt like I was reacting to everything. But at that time, that's sort of the time I started seeing Steph and we did sort of an anti-inflammatory diet at that point, which immediately stopped that panic.

DB

Good.

Michelle

So I think I was probably reacting to gluten, to dairy, to all the things that we sort of had cut like tea we cut out and a few of the supplements that I guess we will react. I was reacting to at the time. I remember I tried beef liver and that was probably the worst panic attack I had.

DB

Wow.

Michelle

So we had to be really, and then when we introduced stuff, Steph would be like, okay, you need to take like a quarter of like this. I had to split tablets up and like go really, really easy. And then we would like slowly, slowly increase doses and stuff like that. So, but yeah, the anti-inflammatory diet, that's the thing that I tell everybody, if you've done nothing else, like do that to start with, because it really, it really calmed down the most acute and probably the the stuff that was causing me the most distress at the time.

DB

Steph, what is an anti-inflammatory diet?

Steph

Yeah, so we started Michelle on a gluten and dairy free diet. We also did a low histamine diet as well. and taking out some of the food triggers, you weren't really having caffeine, but you're having tea, weren't you? So we took out anything that was going to stimulate the fight flight response too much because she was already, that was already happening quite a lot. And then just basic whole foods really. And the other key thing with Michelle and a lot of people who have this autonomic dysfunction is that blood sugar dysregulation happens as well. And so it's really about, you know, making sure there's no sort of triggers from the environment or the food that's going to launch that autonomic nervous system into this chaotic state. Yeah.

DB

And so what would a typical breakfast look like in lunch and dinner while you're there?

Steph

Yeah. So what were you eating for breakfast, Michelle?

Michelle

Gosh, I can't even remember. I've got to go back in time. No, but that's the other thing now is like, I've gone into perimenopause and I feel like I can't. Which is really bad. That's what we're working on now.

DB

Okay, that's okay. I'll push you too hard.

Michelle

I'm like trying to reach back to go where I was and I literally can't remember.

DB

An anti-inflammatory diet, I guess, Steph, is mainly vegetables.

Steph

Yeah, fruit and veg and a good quality protein. I think with the low histamine, you have to be mindful of some of the high histamine foods like fish and eggs can be problematic for some people. Avocado, a lot of people have a lot of avocado on their breakfast. Like just the benign things that you're eating all the time could be quite triggering in those early stages if you've got an MCAS presentation. So just removing some of those foods and supporting the body to be able to deal with that load better.

DB

Okay, so MCAS stands for Mast Cell Activation Syndrome, and it's certainly something that's been talked about a lot more in the last few years, where histamine and mast cells take over the body and reactions fairly unchecked for those people. Do you think that MCAS has been further activated from the COVID vaccine or do you think it's more of a societal environmental type of issue?

Steph

I think it's both and, but definitely post the COVID vaccine and post this sort of COVID period, we have seen it dramatically increase like crazy amounts. And I think there's a few reasons to that. Like we obviously know COVID and the COVID vaccine has an impact on histamine and the mast cells. And for Michelle, I think that even though you were so well pretty much your whole life, there was this sort of underlying mast cell activation. You know, Michelle had a history of... endometriosis and...

Michelle

Alcohol intolerance.

Steph

Alcohol intolerance. You'd had previous reactions to medications.

Michelle

And yeah, and caffeine I've always been sensitive to as well.

Steph

Yes, and so there was sort of this picture, but Michelle, you know, you're pretty health conscious, pretty active.

Michelle

You know, I just want to avoid those things. Like, no, I don't drink caffeine, I don't drink alcohol. And yeah, I never, I obviously didn't put two and two together, but I... would just avoid the things that I felt like were triggers. But I didn't have a name for it. I didn't know what it was MCAS was or anything like that. So it wasn't until this happened and Steph sort of explained that there was sort of obviously an underlying thing and it just obviously triggered it into chaos.

DB

Yeah. Steph, my understanding of MCAS is a lot of a lot of it starts in the gut. And is that where a lot of your focus would be? Healing the intestine.

Steph

Yeah, we did a lot of gut work, but for Michelle, you know, she couldn't tolerate anything in the beginning. Like we were doing topical creams. So, you know, a lot of Michelle's vitamins that support helping with MCAS or methylation were low, like B12 and folate. And you did have a high whole blood histamine and some of the other markers. So we did mainly topicals for ages, didn't we? And like tiny drop doses, like it was very, just trying to calm Everett, to calm Michelle down and stabilize her system. And that worked really well. And you got, and also the nervous system work and breath work.

Michelle

Breath work, meditation, grounding, sunlight, like that was really instrumental, I think, in the healing part. And I think also something that a lot of people maybe don't put enough weight into. Like if I had to comment on maybe why Actually, it's hard to tell because a lot of people do those things as well. But I was like religious with that stuff like and red light therapy I was doing every single day. We bought a grounding sheet for my bed. We bought a sauna during that time. You were doing all the things. My husband's very health conscious as well. So he was like on board. He's like, what are we doing? We're doing all. But yeah, and I also like just noted When I would get out in the environment, for example, I live near the beach. There were times where if I had a panic attack, my husband would take me to the beach and put me in the water, and it would just immediately calm everything down. So just being able to notice those types of things, or if I did breathwork, being able to actually calm myself down and how much of an impact that had, I think just gave me a bit of a sense of control, like there's little things that I can do myself. if I'm in these states that can bring everything down to sort of baseline for a little while. So that gave me a lot of relief.

DB

Last time I went for a swim in Victoria, the water was so cold it took my breath away completely.

Michelle

Yes, well that is still the case. Thankfully when this is happening was like, most of it was like the height of summer. So that was the only time you'll see me in the water.

DB

Fair enough. All of this happened presumably before you had your second shot.

Michelle

No.

DB

The work with Steph.

Michelle

It happened. And I would say the majority of this actually happened after the second shot. So I think I sort of tricked myself into thinking things had calmed down. I'm fine. I've just got to get this second shot and then my life will go back to normal. I just sort of was like, I've got to do it. And then that's sort of when all hell broke loose. Like that was the biggest mistake was getting that second shot, I think.

DB

So I guess it was kind of nerve-wracking going for the second shot in some ways, given that one of your previous GPs had said, don't do it.

Michelle

No, that was for the booster. Oh, that was for the booster. Yeah, I hadn't seen a GP by that point. I did see my GP a little while after the second shot, which is when I really started to presenting to hospital. Everything went crazy. Like a lot of those symptoms just ramped up to 100 panic attacks. I was having like 7 eight a day. I didn't start seeing Steph until after the second shot. And don't worry, I did not get a booster. But my GP actually was, I went, I presented to her and she could see how distressed I was. And she's like, I've never seen you like this before. Like, why are you like this? And I said, this is just since I got the vaccine. And she just sort of dismissed it and was like, well, it's not the vaccine. You must be stressed about something. And she tried to prescribe me anti-anxiety medication. And I was like, there's no way I'm going on anti-anxiety medication. I know that's not what this is. And I just, I mean, I just never went back to her after that, so.

DB

Yeah. Okay, Steph, we've talked about diet and can you just step us through any supplements or supplement regime that you considered for Michelle?

Michelle

Yes, all of the things.

Steph

Yeah, I guess it's like any... person, you're treating the whole person. And I think that's where naturopaths really thrive in helping people with vaccine injury because you're looking holistically. So we, from Michelle's blood work, you know, like I mentioned, she had. low B vitamins, she had high histamine, she had poor liver detox pathways. So we're slowly trying to support those. And we first started just with compounded cream. So like a pyrrol primer cream to get the B6 and zinc in, B12 and folate. We also started with some trying some vitamin C and some mast cell stabilizing support and anything that we could get into Michelle that she could tolerate some quercetin when we could, but we couldn't tolerate that straight away. We even tried some H1 blockers as well, pharmaceuticals, and they were quite helpful for calming down the panic and adrenaline surges, melatonin as well. Obviously, melatonin is very antihistamine and supports sleep. And what else did we use? We, and then we sort of staged it over time until you could like fully tolerate actual oral supplementation. We even did topical glutathione because Michelle couldn't, couldn't take any detox support orally.

Michelle

That spray made my skin beautiful though. That was a bonus.

Steph

That was a bonus. Yeah. And then eventually for Michelle also, we looked, you know, there were some other, what we commonly see with the vax, long vax, is that it can reactivate other infections. And so we did see some other infections underneath the surface, but we could never really get to them because Michelle was so reactive. And so it was really just about making sure you were stable with antihistamine support and natural antihistamines for replenishing the body. supporting the HPA access and then eventually we were able to, and recovering the gut, eventually we were able to get some sort of antimicrobials or support in there to treat the other underlying infections.

Michelle

Yeah.

DB

Yeah. What sort of timeline on average would you think is relevant for a lot of people to start to feel better?

Steph

So Michelle started feeling better within about three months with the diet and just getting the creams on, which was awesome. You got quite, you know, we dampened down that response quite quickly. And then we're going tracking along pretty well.

Michelle

You can describe it. You had a big, I had a big relapse. Yeah. So I guess I got a little bit ahead of myself thinking, I'm fine, I'm back to normal. And I sort of threw myself back into work. And then I had a massive relapse with a big wake up call. And so I had a relapse and I had an overseas trip planned and not a holiday, a work trip, which was very important to me. And I just convinced myself that I was going to be okay. And I just wasn't okay. And being away from home when you're unwell is just, I do not recommend. So immediately, like the flight really took it out of me. I remember calling Steph when I landed the first night because then the adrenaline dump stuff started again, I couldn't sleep, it was like the panic stuff started. And I couldn't walk upstairs again. And I was in America. I just don't recommend being away. And every time I was flying, because I've had quite a few flights cross country on that trip, and I was having panic attacks on the flight. I thought I was going to die on a plane. I'd convinced myself. I'm like, I'm going to die on a plane. I called Steph crying one day. She's like, you're not going to die. She was like, my therapist. So yeah, and then we got home and I basically then just took three months off and was like, I just need to focus on getting better. Like nothing is more important than just, you know, getting well and sort of started all over again. And then, you know, from that point, I just, the reintroduction back into work and stuff, I just took it so slow. Like it was just like baby steps. I'm like, I'm not risking This being a chronic condition, which I've seen a lot of in the vaccine in your community, relapses or chronic pericarditis, or I just didn't want that. Actually around that time was when I eventually got my pericarditis diagnosis 'cause I couldn't, everyone kept telling me it wasn't like the cardiologist I saw originally that it wasn't. And I ended up seeing this, another cardiologist who just said, you're presenting exactly like everything that we've seen, which I guess was very validating, but from a treatment perspective, and this is what Steph said as well, we're still treating it the same. It didn't really change anything. It just for me validated what I was feeling from the very start. Like I was like, it just feels like this to me. Like I could literally feel it. So that was really validating, but then I guess the treatment with Steph was just like, we're continuing doing what we're doing. And then it's just been a very slow, gradual improvement to what I consider now is pretty much full health.

DB

Yeah, that's great. Michelle, you mentioned a few times that you're involved with the vaccine damage community. Can you just talk to me a little bit about the community so people that are listening to this podcast know that there's friends out there, friends in there.

Michelle

I mean, first and foremost, it was like the sort of the Facebook groups was like what popped up during COVID, like little communities of people finding each other, which is a little bit fraught because we the groups would keep getting shut down. We're being very heavily censored, even trying to talk amongst ourselves just to try and get help. But so then we started talking in code words and trying to keep the groups alive. And but there was a lot of people that We were just all helping ourselves. Actually, it was a person within the vaccine in your community that sort of pointed me to the fact that it could have been an MCAS thing in which I told Steph after a particular situation, I had taken a Zyrtec and you were like, oh, if that works, then this is a picture for you sort of thing. So there was like lots of different people. people that could just give a little, like a little link, but then you can take, you know, to someone else and be like, Can you help me with this? But yeah, so and then now I'm involved with a group called Coverse, which is a science led and also patient led support group of people that have been vaccine injured. And obviously, you know, the group is the there for information and also to sort of lobby government into what could be done better and things like that as well.

DB

Are they a US based group?

Michelle

No, we're Australian based group.

DB

Okay, fantastic.

Michelle

A group in America called React 19. So it's very similar.

DB

That's right. Yeah, yep, yep. Okay. No, I know I've tried to publish a few podcasts where COVID-19 and People have had various issues and we haven't made it through the censors often. It's kind of remarkable that it's still being censored so heavily.

Michelle

Yeah. And so like, it's a bit, obviously it's a bit better now, but at the time, like nothing was getting through. Like it was just impossible. Like everything was just so heavily censored. It's amazing that people actually found each other during that time. So it was, I guess, yeah, like the use of code words and things like that once they started realizing the groups were being shut down. Yeah, just stopped using particular words.

DB

So your underlying health sounds like it's getting better. But are there any triggers that you come across that can give you some sort of relapse?

Michelle

No, I'm back at the gym now. I've been back this sort of full year. And still, I'm still like, working on getting back to sort of my full strength. But in terms of I don't, I don't think about it anymore. Like I'm not. It's taken probably two years to get to the point where I'm actually not looking at my heart, you know, my watch to see what my heart rate's at or thinking, don't push too hard or, you know, I might have a heart attack. Like I don't think like that anymore at all, which is great. Yeah, I can go up and down stairs all day, which is great. That's something I don't take for granted anymore because the most severe pain was coming from the stairs. Like as soon as I walked up and I, I live in a three story house and my studio is three stories. So I was not having a good time during that time. So I still avoid caffeine. And I still, I mean, I'm, I pretty much just I think I have an a full blown allergy to alcohol. So I just don't, I just don't drink alcohol at all. So I just avoid stimulants in general. But other than that, no, like foods, I don't have any issues with. None of the supplements that Steph has given me recently, I've had any issues with, which is great. So yeah.

DB

So Steph, where do we go with long term therapies? We I'm sure if there's some sort of modified anti inflammatory diet, that will be long-term. What about long-term supplements? What's your thinking?

Steph

Yeah, I think also the issue for Michelle, because of the huge amount of stress that she went through, and we see this a lot in vaccine-injured patients, her hormones went out of whack completely. So she developed quite significant perimenopause symptoms when they weren't really on the cards prior to the vaccine injury. And so, you know, even though Michelle has been able to train, you know, work, you know, do all the things that she wasn't able to do, we're now sort of still trading and supporting that hormonal dysfunction in the body and helping the body and the mitochondrial still to recover long term and sort of future proof you for anything else that could future proof you for things that could come your way. So like other, you know, COVID infections or any other triggers for the body. Yeah.

DB

Yeah. Great. Well, great work, Steph. Well, guys, that's and just the last bit for me, Michelle and Steph, what do we tell people that have had a reaction? They're not sure their gut feeling tells them that they have reacted adversely. Everyone tells them that's impossible. What do we say to them?

Michelle

I'm pretty radicalized now. Like, I'm like, everything's the COVID vaccine. I've gone the other way. It's probably not not good. But no, no, I the main thing that I say is that I think what Steph said to me at the start was like, I believe you and that there is, you know, there is help. And because I get so many people, especially when I do front facing interviews and stuff, you know, reaching out to me, my DMs and stuff all of the time. So yeah, the biggest bit of advice is, I sort of outline what has worked for me, but also that it's very complicated and these things might not work for you and to seek out a really good naturopath that is, you know, across vaccine injuries, which I'm assuming most of them are. I always pass on Steph's details. Like if you can get in front of Steph, that's always good. But yeah, I think that that point about being believed because most people, especially if they're coming to us now, which I've literally still get message. I got a message like two weeks ago. Doctors don't believe them still. They'll still be, you know, chipping him off. They're having all these tests. No, you're normal, you're normal, you know, all your your tests are coming back normal and they just think they're going crazy. So yeah. Yeah, just to be like, hey, trust your intuition and there is help out there and to sort of not give up and really, really advocate for yourself.

DB

Yeah. Is the Coverse group a good start for people?

Michelle

Yeah, definitely. There's an Instagram page, Coverse, actually, I think you should know the website. Let me find it right now.

DB

Okay.

Michelle

The Instagram page is just Coverse, but the website, I'll just find it, it'll just be coverse.com.au. Not Converse.

DB We'll all be in new shoes before we know it.

Michelle

Why is it not finding it? All right, let me just go to the Instagram page.

DB

That's okay. While you're doing that, Steph, how do people get in touch with you? What's the name of your clinic?

Steph

So we're called Merge Health. So we're a virtual integrative and functional medicine clinic in Merge Health. Melbourne. So we have a team of integrative doctors, naturopaths and health coaches that will support you.

DB

Okay. Is it mergehealth.com.au?

Steph

Yep. Just go to the website. You can fill out a form. Yep. Get in touch with us or message us on Instagram. Yeah. @mergehealth. That's it. Or meet me personally @stephgadsden.

DB

And whereabouts in Melbourne are you?

Steph

So we're in Richmond.

DB

Okay.

Steph

Yeah. So pretty central. Yeah.

Michelle

Yes, I found the website.

DB

Okay.

Michelle

So it's coverse.org.au and it's C-O-V-E-R-S-E. And there's an Instagram page which is just Coverse AU.

DB

So that's a good starting point for people because so many people just don't know where to go with this. So that's great.

Michelle

Yeah, that's great. And then C step #2.

DB

Yeah, good. Guys, you have been brave and remarkable, and I am eternally grateful for your input. And I'm sure there's a lot of people that would love to listen to what you had to say and help with their own health. So thank you so much for your time. Thank you, thanks for having us. We'll connect again another time.

Michelle

Great, thank you. Thank you.