Neurodiversity - adaption and burnout

Life would be boring if we were all the same. However, neurodivergent people often feel the pressure to be "normal" and it takes its toll. The burnout rate is double that of neurotypical individuals.
Paula Liub (https://paula-mindfulness.com/)  is a neurodivergent psychologist who discusses her personal journey.

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Hello, Paula Liub, how are you? Hi, Daniel. I'm good, thank you. How are you? I'm fabulous. And Paula, what part of the world are you in at the moment? I am currently in Lithuania, which is northern Europe. Paula, today we're going to be talking about neurodiversity and neurodivergence. And these are reasonably new words in society. They came into being in 1998 and I'm proud to say it was a word developed by an Australian sociologist, Judy Singer. Oh yeah. But I really like the word. I really like the word neurodiversity or neurodivergence because it says to me that it's a really nice way of saying that people are different because something like 10 to 20% of people have some sort of neurodivergence. According to the literature. That's a lot of people. And I like that because for me it's a word that creates a lot of acceptance for a lot of different people. So rather than thinking of them as odd or different or unusual or not normal, all of a sudden you put in a word like neurodivergence and all of a sudden you start to think actually people are different and that's a good thing. We can all learn from each other. Do you call yourself neurodivergent? How would you describe your superpowers? My superpowers? How would I describe. I would say I have a unique outlook on things, on topics, on ideas. I have unique ideas, I have unique insights. I have this out of the box thinking where I can come up with ideas, solutions, jokes that don't really occur to majority of people. I have a very rich inner world. I'm a very deep thinker. I have very good recognition, pattern recognition and problem solving skills. I have very good analytical mind. I was a data engineer previously for a few years. I quite enjoyed that and I was very good at it. I was always good at maths. So any sort of analytical thinking, problem solving, pattern recognition, that's. That's something I was very, very good at. Still am, I think, but just not as interested these days. Nonlinear thinking. I have heightened empathy, so that really helps in coaching. When I work with people, I can really feel what they're feeling. I can really see what they're going through. And I would say that sensitivity is also a superpower. Some people would not see it that way. But actually being sensitive means that you can actually acquire more information from around you than average people. You can notice more things that other people wouldn't notice in situations and things in people anywhere. So yes, that sensitivity I would think is a superpower. I am always very honest, which sometimes can be a bit of a drawback because that can go into being naive. But I would say it's generally a good thing that people value that I'm always honest, that I'm not gonna do any sort of, you know, behind the back thing, you know, passive aggressive sort of tendencies or anything like that. I just like honestly and openly say whatever. I mean I'm not gonna create some sort of a plot or a scheme to do something or achieve something or make someone understand something. I just say it honestly and upfront. Whatever it is, I'll just say it. So being super honest, does that get you in trouble in social situations? It might, it used to. But you know, I have learned to see what is appropriate or not. And sometimes I see that sometimes it is a problem for, for people like me, you know, I'm autistic and you know, when you don't understand the social situations, when you have to mask or pretend you are in certain way that it's not good for you. But if you don't do that then it's not good for others. You come across rude, etceter. Etc. So the solution I found for myself is that whenever is a situation that I would want to say or do something that's not exactly appropriate, but it's like an honest, authentic thing for myself, I would kind of present it in a way as a joke, as an idea where everyone just gets to laugh and like haha, okay, what a fun idea. But. And then they don't like get offended because it's presented as a joke. But I still expressed myself and I still was authentic to myself in that situation. So this is, I don't know, a tip or a trick that people can use if they want. So it sounds like you've developed this skill as some sort of a self defence mechanism. Is that appropriate? That could be, yeah, that could be said like that, yes. With your ability to see or receive stimulation differently, are we talking about environmental stimulation or social cues? Like for example, in a social situation, you know, if people are having a conversation or and you are or are not in it, would you interpret what they're saying differently or have a different perception or deeper perception about what they're talking about? Do you think? Or are we talking more about Seeing an enhanced version of the environment that you're in. At that time you're walking down the street, you notice flowers popping up more or a noisier car or something like that. Yes, I think both, I think both environment people, but also the sensations of your own body. Okay. This is also an important one because when we, sometimes we have, when we have pain, it's a sharper pain. When we have a hunger, it's, it's a, you know, it's much harder to ignore it and stay polite, etc. You know, so it's, it's actually also to your own body sensations and not just sensation, you know, for example, can be fluctuations for hormonal fluctuations. So for example, women, a lot of women before their bleed, they would experience like lower moods because of the hormones dropping. But people who are neurod divergent and are more sensitive, they would feel those mood moods more intense. So do you think there's bigger mood swings? Is that fair to say? It can be. And you know, there is a more severe form of PMS that's called pmdd, Premenstrual Dysphoric disorder. So neurodivergent people are more prone or more at risk to PMDD as well. It's much more common. PMDD is much more common amongst neurodivergent women. And do you know of any hormonal changes that may affect men or other impulses that men or boys may have? I am not aware of those actually. I mostly work with women, so this is where my expertise lies. There might be, there might be something for, for. And men as well, but I'm, I'm not aware. And boys don't have the cycle, the monthly cycle like women have, you know, for men. For men it's like a daily cycle. Every day you have your energy renewed and you can have a new day. With men, it relates very strongly to how their sporting team is doing. Okay, if their football team is winning, they're happy and if there's not, they're not happy, you know. Yeah, makes sense. Were you diagnosed with some being somewhere on the autistic spectrum at some age? I was, I was I think either 32 or 33. That's quite a late diagnosis. I mean, in Australia at least, many children are diagnosed quite early. So does that tell me that your symptoms were not so strong when you were younger or there was a different cultural way of looking at things? The current situation in the world is everywhere in the world actually. Is that in the medical field as well as in society? Autism is Viewed and explained and talked about from a male perspective, boys perspective. So while the data shows that actually the occurrence of autism is probably almost the same amongst men and women, boys are diagnosed much more often than girls are. And it's just harder to see autism in girls because girls are kind of conditioned from the very early on to, to stay quiet, to be pleasant, to please others, to not cause problems, to kind of not care about yourself too much. You have to make sure everyone else is happy, then you can look at yourself. So there's so many other factors. Yes. And in the medical field as well, the whole explanation, diagnostic criteria is so much geared towards boys, the typical boy behaviour, typical boy presentation of autism, that girls are just often overlooked. This is very, very common. And it can also happen, not just girls and boys, also for people who are more intelligent. So also boys can be overlooked if they're more intelligent, they're more able to mask, they're more able to fit in using their intelligence, but they still struggling, you know, so they still need that diagnosis, they still need those adaptations, but they can be overlooked. A lot of young boys show symptoms by being over, over exuberant in the classroom, throwing things around, jumping off the table, being very loud and crazy and all this sort of stuff which gets them to the doctor much faster. Yeah, yeah. Or also just things like, you know, one of them symptoms is intense interest. So deep, narrow, intense interest. So if a boy is very much into trains and knows everything about the trains, that's like, people start thinking, oh, this is like autistic thing. But if a girl is super into makeup, nobody blinks an eye. Like, even if she knows all the ingredients of every brand of which, like, looks very, very intense and very, you know, kind of unusual when you look at it, nobody really looks. Looks at it as a strange thing. Oh, a girl is into makeup, that's just normal. You know, your case is quite interesting because you were diagnosed in your early 30s. However, when you were 27, you were on holidays and you basically do what you're supposed to do on holidays, you got very relaxed and you all of a sudden realised that there's more energy available to you, your physical energy and potentially mental energy as well. And you had a bit of an awakening which suggested that you realise that you for many years have only been burning on 5% battery power. Is that a good summary of where you're at when you're 27 years old? Yes, this is what happened exactly. How did you react to that? So I realised that I probably was lying to myself. Because this is actually what happens to a lot of autistic women and men who are late diagnosed is that, you know, you have certain difficulties, you have certain challenges in life. You know, you are more sensitive, you get more tired easily. And when you look around, people are like, we all get tired and we just rest and get back to normal. Or, yeah, it's loud, but it doesn't bother me. So you kind of learn to gaslight yourself, almost gaslight the messages your body gives you because you just think, oh, okay, yeah, it's loud, but it's not a big deal. So I should just ignore the feelings of my body or, yes, it's exhausted, exhausting, but everyone gets tired and then they rest and they go back to normal. So this is what I should do. And this is, this is what I was doing. I was kind of ignoring, you know, the signs my body was sending me and I was trying to just continue, carry on with my life. And I thought, this is. This is just how life was. But after having that holiday, I realised that actually, no, this is not normal, that there is actually possible to have more energy and more clarity and more focus and not be overwhelmed so much all the time. It is possible. So then I realised, actually, I don't care if everyone else lives this way or if this is normal, but I don't want to live that way anymore. So I started this kind of deeper journey of knowing myself and creating a life that's more in harmony and in balance, where I would have more energy and thrive. Yeah, okay, and you went on to study psychology? No, I studied psychology before, but that did not help. Like, even studying psychology, I did not recognise that I might be autistic. It's just not how. That's how it's presented in the sciences. As a boy who likes trains, you. Had a job, you went on holidays from your, Your job. And did you give up your job? No, I did not give up my job, but I gave up some extra responsibilities because until then I was a very kind of driven, motivated person. I thought, like, you know, if I am, you know, enjoying yoga, for example, this is what was happening at the time. If I engage in yoga and if I help people around that and if I volunteer, et cetera, like, it's. I thought it was okay to do all those things if I care about them, if I love them. I thought it was okay to do a lot of things as long as you enjoy them. But actually it's not true. It doesn't matter how much you enjoy or want to do Something or other people want to do something. Other people want you to do something. Excuse me, doesn't matter. It's like you need time to yourself. You need a break in the evening, on the weekends, you need time to yourself, you need time to rest, you need time with your loved ones, you need to take care of your body properly. So this is something that I started doing. I started to taking to take more time for myself and not to do all the things other people expected me to do. To help someone, to volunteer somewhere to do something just because, you know, I enjoy doing it. I actually started to take back some time for rest. It took a while to really establish that because there was a lot of, you know, people pleasing, there was a lot of weak boundaries, there was so many other things to work through and it's not so easy. But this really motivated me to get started on that journey. So I guess as a person with autism, and if you're in the minority, and I know it's up to 20% of people suffer from some sort of autism, as we said, but you know, that's still the minority, I suppose you're trying to fit into what is normal society, work and personal life. And that takes a lot more energy and consideration to do that. And as you mature, as you get older as a person, you would start to understand social cues a little bit more. And you know, that must take a lot more concentration to work and fit into all those what we would call normal sort of life. Is that right. In some way? Yes. It takes more effort to do some other things that come naturally to other people. When it comes to concentration and focus. Actually autistic ODHD people, we, in some ways we can have much better focus. If it's something that is interesting for us, if it's something that we like, we feel motivated, we can be really good at it. We can really go. It's called hyper focus. We can really go deep into it. We can do it really in an intense, strong way. We can be super good at it. We can actually complete tasks like 10 times faster than usual, but it actually then takes a lot of our energy as well. So it's important to take to take care of ourselves. Then part of the education process for people that are neurodivergent is helping them to find their path in terms of work. For example, I know that neurodivergent people do very well in IT related industries or you yourself were involved in the data industry, I think you said, yeah, there is plenty of opportunity for success. But do you feel that society or governments helping neurodivergent people find their pathway in life adequately. I don't think there is adequate help. First I'd like to note it's a bit of a stereotype that autistic people are good at maths or analytical skills. It like there is definitely a good portion of us who are, but there are equally some autistic people who are not good at that at all. But they are than good at languages or arts or any other areas. So yeah, I just wanted to note that because I know some people will be waiting for me to do that. Correction. Yeah, I just use that as an example. I didn't mean it as a stereotype. But yes, thank you. Yes, thank you. So in terms of government and society support, there is just not a lot of support. It really varies depending on where you are in the world. Some governments do offer support, some don't. But I haven't really heard any word that has actually really good, well catered support. I have to say neurodivergent wellness in general is a very new field that's not well researched, that's not well understood. It's still in its infancy and there aren't many good professionals who can actually do that well. Also I think it's just not. I don't know, maybe it is possible but in my experience and I actually think that if a person is neurotypical and they go through certain training to go to help neurodivergent person it's very hard for them to actually help them in. In a quality way because they just will not going to understand how the brain works, how they experience the world. It's really hard for them to be an actual good support. So there is a growing number of neurodivergent professionals who help neurodivergent people and that can actually help I think much better. But there still isn't like a much of infrastructure from government or schools or et cetera to help people find the way to find their path. They're kind of left to their own devices and whatever they can have in terms of their friends, family, support or their own financial capabilities to find support, help and create a life where they can thrive. Even neurodivergent professionals helping other neurodivergent people must be quite a challenge because no two brains are the same. And so I suppose everyone's neurodivergent abilities and the way their brain works is really quite different. Can emotionally understand what somebody's going through, but can you really understand how somebody else's brain is working if yours is going one way and somebody else is going another. I mean, of course, in some ways there is truth to that, that every person, it's its own universe. But I think among neurodivergent people, it's a much better understanding of each other than amongst, you know, mixed groups. And, but I mean, in general, like, if, if we take science of psychology, science of psychiatry, both of these sciences, the mental health industry in general is still at its infancy. Like, we don't really have effective solutions even for neurotypical people, for things like, you know, depression, anxiety, ptsd. We still, like, you know, we have some drugs, we have some therapies that kind of help a bit, but not completely, that come with a lot of side effects. So even like any mental health in general is. Is still like a very new science that hasn't really created good solutions for. For everything. Like, maybe for some things, for some people it might help in some aspects. But still in general, this as a science is very, very, very new. I agree, and I think you've said the magic word. Some things for some people, yeah, that's the way it is. So do you think there's much difference in the cultural attitude towards neurodivergence? Do different countries or peoples within the country have different expectations? I would say, in general it isn't. I think everywhere in the world, like, it's still, it's still kind of, you know, seen as a stigma, seen as a sort of disorder, seen as something different. And we have a lot of advocacy these days to talk about it, to say that, look, up to 10% people, maybe even if we include highly sensitive people, it's maybe Even up to 30% people are in some way neurodivergent. So we have a lot of advocacy going around. We have a lot of people raising awareness. But I think still in general, when we talk about the Western society that we are in, it's still not really understood in a general way, in a broad way, not really seen, not really accepted. The only difference is in some other societies, it can vary. Like it, it can be more seen or more accepted as a general, you know, difference that, you know, we're all different in some way. And I really want to mention Maori. Maori, I think, in New Zealand. Oh, Maori. Okay. Yes, yes. Sorry if I'm pronouncing it wrong. Miami, they have a word. I just googled it really quickly. I hope I pronounce it right. Taki Watanga. It's a word for autism. And it means in their own Time and space. Ah, nice. Yeah. So I don't actually know what, what is, what is the situation in that community, how people accept autism and how they're treated, but I like that they have a word that is so, so beautifully describes autism and hopefully that helps them see them in a more friendly way and accept them. I think maybe something like that. I like that too. And I really hope that something like that exists in more communities and in other societies that we maybe don't know that much about. You need to translate it into Lithuanian. You can start a movement, put it on T shirts. Wow. You described yourself as going through burnout. And, you know, and burnout would normally mean complete exhaustion, over reactive to certain situations, often craving sugar, poor sleep patterns, perhaps anxiety, perhaps depression, perhaps a bit of both. Is that what you experience? Yes, yes. I, I think when I was going through many burnouts, I, I recognised a few times that I was getting close to the edge of depression because, you know, I have a background in psychology, so I could notice that, you know, before, before it got serious and, and you know, I did, I did something to, to help myself. But yeah, definitely I was, I didn't know what was burnout, I didn't know I was going through burnout, but I, you know, with having that background in mental health, I did notice that, you know, something is not right. I need to do something, I need to help myself, but I didn't really have that clarity or all the tools or all the knowledge that I have now to really find effective solutions. Do neurodivergent people experience burnout more often? Yes, yes, absolutely. I was trying to find some numbers and it's quite hard to find exact numbers because they really vary depending where you look at, you know, how it is with statistics. But the general trend that I noticed is that in general population it says that around 40% people experience burnout and in neurodivergent population is 80% people. So it's double. And 80% is a very big number. That's a huge number. Goodness, man, I never realised. Okay, is that by a certain age or is that just an overall statistic covering the whole spectrum of age? I think it's, it's a general statistic that means that 80% of neurodivergent people will have experienced burnout at some point in their lives. But talking from experience, if you're neurodivergent and you experience burnout, it often is repeating itself. How did you go about treating yourself? How did you improve your own condition? So when I got back from that holiday I really decreased a lot of my tasks, responsibilities. It wasn't easy. It was so, so scary to face it and to tell people, look, I'm not going to help you with this anymore. I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm not going to be there anymore. It was so, so scary. And you know, anyone who's ever been for this, anyone who's ever been into, you know, people pleasing tendencies, low self worth, anything like that, I think everyone knows how hard it can be to really come out of it. Like, and you not necessarily come out of it because you know, if you actually come out of it, it would be easy to say that. But before you come out of it and you have to say it, it's so, so hard. But this is where I started and, and I thought, okay, I decrease some of my tasks, I have more time, I'm gonna rest more, I'm gonna have more balanced life and I will not burn out anymore. So that was the case for, you know, half a year maybe. And then I burnt out again. And then I looked into deeper reasons. This, because this, there's so many, this is why we have so many as well now. Burnout professionals. Because burnout is not, it's not a simple thing. It's such a complex phenomena. There's so much, so many other aspects of it. It's not just too much work. It's usually like, you know, people pleasing, not enough boundaries. You have to, you know, set boundaries, but then you have to work with yourself, where you have to work with your confidence. But then there is other things, you know, nervous system regulation, emotional regulation, understanding your, your energy cycles, understanding how, how to plan your work, understanding how you know where your energy comes from, dealing with your sensitivities, dealing with your chronic illnesses, etc, so there's so, so many other nuances. And this is why it took me really five years to, to find that solution and that system because there isn't one solution, there isn't many, many aspects of it to, to really find all the different aspects and to solve them. And you know, for me it took five years, but I already had background in psychology. I was already meditating and eating healthy and sleeping enough and doing all the right things, but it just took me so long. And you know, if there are people who are listening and who are going through burnout year after year, I just want to say you're not alone. There's nothing wrong with you. It can happen to many of us that we go from one to another to another. There's just so much to learn and so much to change before you can, you can have a more stable energy, a more balanced life. So it took me, it took me five years and what I did, I went into this process with what I call radical self awareness and radical honesty. Looking at things that I usually used to avoid, you know, why I want to please others, where I'm feeling not enough, where I'm, where my energy is going, where I'm not regulating myself, where, you know, it, learning all these things. And did you do that with help or was this a self treatment? I did self treatment which is a big mistake. I think if I had help I would have done it much faster. But at that point I did not have that realisation or understanding. I think now I totally would do that. And I recommend to everyone as well to get help, even if it doesn't even have to be some big programme or commitment to a year long therapy. You can even just go for one session and help yourself have more clarity and plan some, some steps. So it's, it's really, I think it just saves you a lot of time and with saving a lot of time it actually saves a lot of money. For me personally the block was, was money. Even though I was earning, I had a salary, I was earning, I wasn't, you know, in a bad financial situation but I just thought like, you know, investing in myself, it's like super luxury. This is, you know, I shouldn't be spending money on that but actually if I had spent that money I would have made much more when I recovered quicker. A good return on investment. Yes, exactly. It's such a good return or investment because when you are burnt out, not only sometimes you have to take breaks from work and lose that earning, you are actually not able to progress in your career. So there is potential earning that you're losing as well. So actually I hope people don't make my mistake. Don't treat self care as some huge luxury that you're going to afford yourself like 10 times in the 10 years in the future. You know, do it now, save yourself time, save yourself money, health, relationships. Yeah, you know, it's, it's a very expensive thing. Burnout. It makes a lot of sense what you're saying. When you had the realisation that you had to step back from commitment to what people wanted from you and you know, work, socially, friends, family, what were the overall reactions you had to face? Were people understanding or did you find Some people were quite confronted by that. It really surprised me that everyone Was very understanding. Everyone I talked to was very understanding, very kind. I didn't even tell them I was burnt out because I didn't know I was burnt out. But I said, listen, I'm really sorry, I love helping you, I would love to continue doing that, but I just cannot anymore. I don't have enough energy. I am, you know, I am getting exhausted, I can't do this, I'm really sorry. And everyone was really kind, which actually helped me to. Which actually really helped me in the process of working with myself and realising actually I am putting that pressure on myself because of my own, you know, self, low self worth or people pleasing or whatever. Because everyone was really kind. And if somebody wouldn't have been kind, this would have been also yellow light for me to think actually maybe that person is not a friend. Maybe they don't really care about me as much. Well, look, I've come to a realisation that most people want to help other people most of the time. And people are generally, most people are very kind and understanding because most people have been through situations themselves. It's more unusual to find somebody that's just being mean. Yeah. Yes, absolutely. I suppose a big part of all of us are conditioned as we talked about earlier. And undoing that conditioning or unlearning that conditioning must be a very big part of the therapy. So to unpack yourself basically, do you have techniques or other superpowers that you can help people with to do that? Yes. So when I work with that, I work with limiting beliefs because under all of that there is a limiting belief. What is a limiting belief? Sorry. Usually. So I'll. I'll tell you an example. For, for example, if, if I was thinking that, okay, I need to do this, I need to, to help somebody with their event and then I would think, okay, if I don't help them, you know, then they would think badly of me. But actually that's a limiting belief. They will not think badly of me. Or there's another limiting belief. If I help them, I will get that validation, acceptance from people. They will accept me, they will value me and then I can value myself. Then I can think of myself as a valuable person, as a smart person, as a helpful person, as a kind person. But then when I let them down and I say, will not be able to help you with that and they still think of me as a kind person, then my limiting belief is shattered. But actually I'm still kind. If I can help someone. And here is a tip for people who find it hard practise with letting people down in small ways. If you're a person who is bending over backwards to always be on time, try to be two minutes late somewhere. See how a person reacts. Will they think badly of you? Will you think badly of you? Maybe practise having positive thoughts about yourself in that moment, saying that, okay, I'm late two minutes, but I'm still a real reliable person. People are still gonna trust me and ask me for help. In Sydney we call it being fashionably late. Yeah. In Europe as well. How do people get in touch with you? So I'm on all social media channels so you can go anywhere you, you're on at Paola mindfulness at Instagram, Paula Lube on Facebook and LinkedIn. Can you just spell that for me? P A, U, L E space L, I, U B on Facebook and LinkedIn. And you can go to my website, which is paola-mindfulness.com so there is more information about me. There are some free resources that you can use to help yourself get started. And I especially want to invite people to book a free consultation. You know, if you are feeling burnt out, if you're not sure if you want to prevent burnout, let's have a chat, we'll see where you at. I'll help you plan next steps, I'll point you in the right direction. If I can help you, we can see how that might look like. If I cannot help you, I will refer you to someone or something that would help you. So this is a really good first step if you're just not sure and a bit lost to get started. Well, that's very generous of you and wonderful, thank you. So I guess the take home message is there is so much to listen and learn from each other and with a word like neurodivergence, we can all start to give each other a bit of respect and understand the strengths of each human being on this planet, which can only be to our collective strength. So you're doing good work. Thank you, Paula. Thank you Daniel. And before finishing, I'd like to just give a little inspiration to people and just say that, look, we've been raised, we haven't been raised in a way to, to take care of ourselves. We haven't really learned that from early age. So if you are burnt out, no, it's not your fault, but it is in your power to get better and it does get better and there are beautiful things awaiting you. You just need to start believing it and take the first step. Thank you and thank you for your time and enjoy your autumn weather. We're in spring here, but you enjoy your autumn. Thank you. Thank you, Daniel. Bye Bye.