Beating Breast Cancer

'You have aggressive breast cancer' are not the words you want to hear; ever.  However Christina's Naturopath, Oncologist and family backed by  her unshakable faith got her through faster than expected with relatively minimal trauma. By working together the possibilities are endless.

Transcript

Daniel Baden: 0:16

in 2022, breast cancer directly affected nearly 21,000 Women in Australia, of course, 1000s more impacted such as family and friends, natural medicine has so much to offer in Cancer Support. Today, we're very lucky that we have naturopath, Helen Christian, and her patient Christina on board. Welcome, guys. Hello. So good to have you here. And Christina, thank you so much for sharing your story with us. And so looking forward to it. Helen in 2020, you started seeing Christina for some gut issues, what was that all about?

Helen Christian: 0:52

So Christina made contact that she had a really, really terrible reflux. And her esophagus had already been pretty much damaged by the ongoing issue. She was already on pariet, which is a proton pump inhibitor. So we went through quite an extensive treatment protocol, and we resolved all of that for her. It evolved dietary intervention, herbal intervention, obviously, some lifestyle changes, and Christina had a really good result.

Daniel Baden: 1:32

Christina from what I understand this might have been brought on by severe stress, business related stress throughout COVID.

Christina: 1:39

Yes, yes. And there was I've been involved in the business world for over 10 years now. That's as a general manager for a group of businesses as well as finding our own businesses. And we've had some serious challenges and then COVID hit, and that was just like, you know, the icy like, it was just, oh, my gosh, how are we going to navigate through this now? I thought we were looking at bankruptcy, I thought we're gonna lose their house. It was it was pretty. Yeah, heavy stuff that we were going through, especially myself, the way I was internalizing it. The esophagus issue, I think was a result of a lot of that pent up stress. And I do also wonder how much of that has contributed to the journey that I've been on this year with breast cancer?

Daniel Baden: 2:36

are you typically an anxious sort of person? Or had you had significant stress before? Or is it something that just hit you out of the blue? Because of the COVID Crisis?

Christina: 2:46

Yes, and no. The reason I say that is we've gone through a number of stuff, yeah, as a family unit. And that's been all good. But the financial part of it has been my stress point. And not that I want to own it. But that's where it was, I feel like there's been a shift this year, like, I've had an opportunity through this journey to just reflect and just really work out. Does it really matter? Was it worth it? Was it worth dealing with that kind of allowing yourself to get that stressful? On the financial situation, a lot of stuff was out of our control, like COVID. And the way that was managed, we have a shop, a third shop in the city. And our, our patrons are the tenants that are upstairs, which are the corporate yet workers and what were they asked to do work from home? So who were you going to serve? And then the other part of say, 20% of our revenue will come from building sites. And during that period, there were times when the body sites were asked to close. So yeah, we were just like, and we lost, we had to let go 70% of our staff.

Daniel Baden: 4:08

Heart breaking that sort of stuff isnt it?.

Christina: 4:11

yeah it actually was and it was also heartbreaking going into the city of Sydney, catching a train and walking desolate streets. And just going is this. This is meant to be the heartbeat of Australia. And there's no one here like it was, yeah, I used to just walk down and just couldn't believe what I was seeing. And I used to be in the corporate world years ago, and and I was in the city for 16 years. So I understood what the city wasn't meant to look like. But yeah, with what just what happened with their own business. I actually had to I, I had no work with the work that I was doing because I was in restaurants as a general manager. And they had to close down and so I went in and worked the business with my husband and it's to staff.

Daniel Baden: 5:01

Yeah, I felt like going through Sydney at that time was being in a zombie movie. Yes, surreal.

Christina: 5:08

It was it was

Daniel Baden: 5:10

Helen and you work together to resolve the esophagitis and acid reflux issues. But two years later, in'22, you were diagnosed with breast cancer. And what was your first thought when that happened?

Christina: 5:27

I felt a lump towards the end of 2022. And I just felt like that was going to be the diagnosis. And I'm not a pessimist type of person. People that know me will say she's a half classical, but it was just something that I just felt. So when the diagnosis came, I wasn't surprised. But I was very grateful at how it all was. He just all turned down. Like I actually booked myself in for a mammogram, I didn't even bother with the GP, I just thought, this is gonna get looked at, he's gonna send me for a mammogram. So I went through breast screening, New South Wales, just booked myself in and they were on it straightaway. Like within 24 hours, I had a call back 48 hours after that I was in a specialized clinic, we're now looking at Christmas week. So a lot of their clinics were closed, and they managed to get me a spot in Wollongong. And she was quite insistent on the phone that I needed to come in. She's very lovely, very trained. And she wouldn't say why she just said, we really would like to see you again, do further testing. And I suppose we're at Christmas, it's Christmas week away approaching Christmas. And she wouldn't let up. And I just went, Okay, I obviously need to come. And even just walking into that environment. They do such a magnificent job. It was so beautiful. The the mural on the wall, just everything that paintings that the atmosphere and Accenture and I walked in going there's going to be biopsies today for sure. And by the end of it, they had to take nine biopsies my I have a very strong Christian faith. So when I booked it in the end, that took a lot of faith to even take the step to book in and get examined and investigate and go through the investigation. The pray was that the right doctors with the right intervention at the right time. And I just stood on that with a friend of mine. So we're just standing on that. And what was interesting, that was the Monday of the biopsies and the further scan in and etc. between Monday and Thursday, the appointment to see a breast specialist changed on me three times with three different doctors, three different locations. And on that Monday when I was in the breast clinic, I strongly thought I needed to reach Helen. So I texted her and said Helen, but this time I hadn't even had the biopsies I wasn't even told that I was having biopsies right. So they're sitting there and I just felt I need to get an appointment with Helen this week. So I reached Helen. I said, Do you have anything about what she's got? And she's like, I've got one appointment left on the Thursday, late afternoon. I said that's mine. So as it turned out, even on the Wednesday, I got another phone call changing the breast specialist appointment on the Thursday. So I ended up with a appointment on first day about midday or something. My husband came with me and we had obviously prayed and we just saw the Lord and just really the prayer was that we will have a peace that surpasses all understanding. And so we we sat down with a beautiful breast specialist, just an amazing level of empathy. And my son rang me that morning is actually studying medicine. And he said mom, I like to pray with you. I said off yeah, great. Thank you and it what was interesting what came out of his mouth and he's a he's a young man have a lot of faith. And he said mod my the doctor that speaks to my mom speak with words of empathy and wisdom that those words be How did he put it chosen words, but they they be delivered with care?

Daniel Baden: 9:34

How reassuring to you!

Christina: 9:36

yes and I got off the phone and I went to myself That's a confirmation. I'm about to get a diagnosis, which obviously I don't want to hear. But it will be delivered in a way that I will be able to hear it and that it's okay God's with me. This piece here. So we when we walked in, we sat down and the doctor was trying to build a report was very Sweet and how are you? And I said, Oh, in all due respect, can we just get to the diagnosis? Can you just give me the results, please. And she said, unfortunately, you've got breast cancer, it's hormonal, it's quite advanced, it's quite aggressive. It's hit the lymph nodes. There's two tumors in the breast as well. And we need to get on to this as soon as we can. And I said, Okay, she did an examination. And she then said, I will coordinate everything. You don't need to do anything, we'll be in touch. And then we walked out of there, we were good. My husband and I, we actually went and had a coffee in the tweet after that. And we're ready for the appointment with Helen. So going from that straight to Helen. And then having Helen who understands medical terminology, just with her background and her qualifications. And I had the report fresh in my head, it was hot, like it was just given to me. And he went straight to Helen. And she read it. And for me, it was comforting, because she read it, I could see that she understood it. It looked to me that she understood the severity of it, as well like this, we've got to get on to this. And she gave me some really strong words of wisdom. And then she said, My job is to book support your immune system, through the process through what you're about to go through. And then she was on the phone, like ordering stuff, and online and whatever she had, and we went through everything diet, juices, yet she was very strict, very straight down. Like why come

Daniel Baden: 11:51

We'll come onto that in a second. One thing you said was you're praying for peace that surpasses all understanding. Explain what that means to you.

Christina: 12:01

That's straight from on the Bible. And for me, personally, it was a piece that just settles. It was an assurance within my spirit and my soul, that will comfort me that regardless of what I was going to be told, it wasn't going to unnerve me, I was going to be steadfast in knowing and knowing that I'm in the right hands. And for me, that's I mean, God's hands, he will bring anyone that I need around me to help me journeys,

Daniel Baden: 12:42

Puts you in a nice position, Helen. Yeah, Christina turned up with her report. And it would have said that she had estrogen receptor positive and also, H E R two positive breast cancer. Now for our listeners. HER2 means human epidermal growth factor receptor two, which affects about 1/5 of breast cancer patients in Australia, usually fairly aggressive. But you also had another type of breast cancer responsive to estrogen. And those estrogen receptors allow the cancer to grow faster. So you are faced with a double barrel shotgun basically, and two types of cancer which can promote a fairly aggressive growth pattern. What's the first thought that comes to you as a holistic practitioner,

Helen Christian: 13:35

I knew the journey that she faced in terms of the therapy that she needed, and how extremely taxing it is on the body. And the success of any such therapy depends on the person's resilience and ability to withstand it to withstand all the sessions. And I just thought, I have a big job. But I was also very confident in who Christina was and her ability to do exactly what I said. Because compliance is also a major issue. I was also really confident that a person's psyche and emotions and soul are also equally and just as important and I knew she had her faith. I also knew her son was adopted pretty much so I thought I didn't have to in my mind that anything I had to say, I felt confident to say whatever I needed to tell her, she would take it in exactly the right light and this and be able to relay again to her the seriousness of her position. And I thought I can just get started straight away. There was no lead up needed. She knew exactly how I worked because we fixed her, her gut issues and I knew she would be Be quite confident to take that journey with me as well. And I knew also that a lot of oncology doctors don't want to work with us. And I knew that she would do it anyway. So those will things that I thought of in that session.

Daniel Baden: 15:14

From your experience, why do you think oncologists prefer not to work with holistic medicine? Or shy away from it? Do you have any thoughts around that?

Helen Christian: 15:25

Yeah, I do. This is in Australia. It's not the case overseas. overseas in the American clinic, specifically, the breast cancer clinics, the complementary medicine, doctors are about it to those clinics, and they work together. In fact, there's no such thing as a naturopath per se in America, the naturopathic doctors, so they diagnose they do surgery, they, it's a very different playing field. Very nice in Australia. So in Australia, we're a bit of a we are an island, but we're also not Ireland in that regard. They don't know enough. They're not encouraged to work with us from the people that give them their protocols. They're told to not have anything to do with us. And the ones that do have had experience as this doctor changed throughout this whole journey, and was deferring in the end to me for everything, and was willing to look into the background of what I was doing all the clinical research, because actually don't go and look. So they don't know. That's why,

Daniel Baden: 16:37

well, look, they've got a complicated job. And they're not looking for more complication from what we do, I guess, when Christina came in to see Helen, lymphocytes, they'd gone up a little bit her C reactive protein, which is a measure of inflammation had doubled from the previous year. And vitamin D. Low previously, but it seemed to be coming up. Where do you start? Do you start looking at the immune system? Do you start preparing the liver, knowing that there's going to be a lot of toxic materials coming through the way of chemotherapy? How do you how do you process at Ella?

Helen Christian: 17:12

Yeah, definitely, I had a really close look at her initial bloods that she brought in. And the things that you mentioned were the only things that were out. The rest of her bloods were really good, her liver enzymes are great. Other white blood cell markers were good. Her red blood cell markers were fine. Her vitamin D had been low when I treated her the last time and I had her already on vitamin D. had gone to AD. So my aim and she was also on a lot of other supplements that I had already had her on, including zinc. She was not progesterone positive, which was fantastic. Because often that's worse than being estrogen positive. I won't go into why but it is so and her braca was negative. So that's the genetic, although there were people in her family that had had breast cancer, she personally was braca negative. So I just focused on those positives. And my idea was just to start her on her immune stuff. So I put her on what doctors also uses selenium for these cancers, it stops that fast changing cell from changing that way. And I put her on a compound called Riber x, which is created by doctors who work with oncology and keep the immune supported without negating the effects of the chemo. And there's a lot of research on that plus a few other things. I put her on aloe vera juices. My aim was to keep her well and to change her diet. There's a lot of research on the ketogenic diet with cancers. I'm a naturopath so I don't like ketogenic diets perpetually because there's too many ketones for the body to work with. However, in these situations, my aim was to work with the chemo with that keto, and put her take her off anything that would fit that cancer, which is starches, dairy, the things that the overseas doctors work with on an everyday basis. So I was using clinical research with this. And my aim was to keep her really well too, and to keep her able to tolerate as much chemotherapy as they needed to give her because she also needed to do targeted therapy for her too. So there was a lot Tammy and then I knew she'd need the radiation the burning. So my aim was to give the chemo the maximum effect to have a complete treatment and to avoid any mastectomy if possible, because Christina definitely didn't want the mastectomy.

Daniel Baden: 19:44

Christina you didn't want a mastectomy, which I completely understand. But I was wondering what your thinking was behind that because I, from my experience, some women just want it as fast as they can. And some women just don't want it at all. What did Do you go through to get to your decision?

Christina: 20:01

I actually, so initially, that first consultation with a breast specialist with the diagnosis, I actually said to book me in and take the breast, right? Because I am a bit of a, what's the problem, let's deal with it and move on. That's how I deal with things. So she strongly recommended, we don't go that way. She said, we want to actually reduce, let's reduce, and then it says, After treatment, right? Having a med student at home, that was amazing. And just as it happened, he had just finished studying breast cancer he had, and he was able to go and do some more research on my behalf. So whatever, he was always with me, my son, so he with all the consultations, and that was amazing, because he understood the medical dominant terminology. So once a doctor explained it in layman's terms to myself, she would then explain it in medical terms deport. That's my son's name, he would, then I would, if I had any more questions, I would ask him to go do some further research. And then he was able to come back and present it man, there's four papers out there, this is the amount of women that they've started, it's gone for this period of time. And this is the findings by so we're able to just talk factually, etc. So just we were talking to the specialists, and then the oncologist as well. And then as well as my son and my husband. We were like all uniformed in Okay, let's give the treatment ago, and my son was really passionate. It's like, man, it's hit the lymph nodes, we want to, we want to reduce the size, give us a chance not to get in there with an operation that the doctors get the treatment going, right. And let's just concentrate in reducing the sizes of the tumor. Once we do that, we can then assess what the next step is regarding an operation.

Daniel Baden: 22:06

it sounds like you're almost running out a mentor program for Paul. "Study this, do that"

Christina: 22:12

Look, he would go off and do things he himself anyway, but I would. And I would just say, Paul, they've said this, what do you think? You know, Mom, I'll come back to you tomorrow. Tonight, like so? Go and do it. And then he just, I think he just understood how I needed to be communicated to. Yeah.

Daniel Baden: 22:32

Lucky. That's cool. Yeah. Helen, can you just explain to us in very brief terms, what a keto diet is because not everybody knows what a keto diet is.

Helen Christian: 22:42

So a keto diet is where you reduce the glycemic index of the diet to be so low with the the body can't use glucose, because everything pretty much that you eat breaks down to glucose, but all your carbohydrates, particularly your starchy carbohydrates, of which sugar is the most broken down when they're free in the blood. It's known that cancers use those to grow. So any NCCIH and Christina had tumors in the breast that were palpable as well. It reduces your body's ability to use glucose as a fuel, so then it has to give off ketones and you can measure them in the urine, which we didn't do with Christina because she was so compliant, that I knew that they would be low. And in fact, we got it down to the point where before, as I said, I'm a naturopath. So before the chemo, we would be a little bit more liberal, so she wasn't allowed to have any starches, no starchy vegetables and most starchy fruits. However, I let her have a few legumes. And once she got used to that she was kind of okay, but the keto diet can be so specific that before chemo when I reduced even those and all the fruits except berries, pretty much she felt it, she wasn't that that well, which can make you quite a bit feeling unwell, because your body then has to use a different fuel source. So a ketogenic diet is where you don't allow the body to use glucose as a fuel pretty much to stop the tumors from growing but also it allows the cancer, the chemo to attack that cancer a lot more effectively. Did I answer that?

Daniel Baden: 24:26

Perfect. Thank you. Helen. You had Christina on a number of supplements, various gut health products, various fibers through different products, gut repair type formula zincs and some of the immune supplements that you mentioned earlier, and a little bit of anxiolytic or anti anxiety type medicines every now and again as the herbal medicines but she went through fairly intensive chemo between January and February for rounds and were you able to keep on the supplements while she was going through chemo.

Helen Christian: 25:01

Yes, the doctor was, was excellent in what the amount that we could keep her on. After the first part of treatment. Normally, people are quite sick. They are really, really. And they warn Christina of this. People are nauseous, they're vomiting, they lose weight, they have rashes. They have headaches, there's malaise that they've got the ability, Christina had none of that, and the doctor couldn't believe it. So after she saw that, she said to me, which made me a little bit nervous, because they were a lot more specific. Usually, she said, do whatever you want.

Daniel Baden: 25:41

It's scary.

Helen Christian: 25:43

yeah, she said, if you can keep her well, like this, she said to Christina, just defer to Helen. Whatever Helen says she can stay on, you can stay on you can stay on. So I was able to keep Kristina on quite a lot of the things, I did take her off some of the things a bit bit in line with, with the keto diet to make sure that chemo had the best chance of working. So anything I felt was going to interfere at all with that chemotherapy, I took her off, but I was able to keep her on, like a lot of it. So yes, I was able to keep her on a good deal of it throughout the whole treatment.

Daniel Baden: 26:21

some of those products that you had her on fascinating because they allow the cell to actually cope with a higher dose of chemo, which gets faster and better results. Yes, it's such a big opportunity to work together with the doctors in many types of cancers. And they're very

Helen Christian: 26:39

much so and it's not the first time I've been able to use those products, I use them really well in lung cancers where there's barrages of radiation and chemotherapy. And if the team, I'll send them all the pharmacology to the pharmacist that's there. And teams are so different in Australia, in America, they all are uniform in Germany, in Australia, one team will let you use everything, and one team will say you can't use any of it. The pharmacists that they work with, if they actually go through all the research, they'll say you can use it, and it's the same result, the person is still standing, they don't lose weight that really well. So for any pretty much all cancers, it's a it's a similar therapy. But then with breast cancer, it's a lot more specific.

Daniel Baden: 27:26

I used to work with some doctorswho ran a Swiss clinic. And they were telling me that, you know, once a week, they would have their roundtable put the patient cases on the table, and discuss all of the products, whether they were chemo radio, or natural medicine products, and make group decisions as to what was best for that patient. I love that because you get better results. The doctors in the hospital quite blown out that the side effects were minimalized. And I believe that your husband, Christina was saying you are the best you've ever looked!

Christina: 28:03

He actually has. So I did lose weight, but not because of being unwell. I lost weight because I followed. I was very compliant. Thank you, Helen. I liked it. I was very compliant. I followed the diet strictly. And coming off sugar and starch with minor exceptions, per whatever Helen allowed, you know, said I can or can't have. That was actually quite easy. For me. It was it just made sense. It was just like, let's get it done. So by doing that, and the other thing that was emphasized to me both by the doctors and Helen, I needed to exercise Dale is that was so strongly emphasized. And it was even a case that even when you are so fatigued, so I never felt unwell. But I had, I was tired, like this, this tiredness where I would go I actually now need to go to bed. And within a second, I'll be asleep. And then you know, 40 minutes later, I'll wake up and go, Okay, I really needed that I never had that sensation before. Or I might have an afternoon where I just it just had to be very slow pace like I had. Yeah, there was a tightness I've never felt with the treatment. So I was even told when you're even that tight. Five minutes of just a walk is better than nothing. I did it like if I was told that anyone and my husband was extraordinary. Like we're not. We're only about 1015 minutes to a beach. So he's like and because of the chemo, and I'm quite fair, I couldn't get out during the day. So we would go for early evening walks when the sun was setting and he was just smart. He took me to the water. And it was so calming. And if all I could do was walk five Minutes and hold his hand up very, very slowly. That's what we did. And we sat down. And that was just therapeutic to just look at the ocean and look at the sky and the stars. And for me for my faith, it just reminded me, I saw that God created all of this, right? So we really are in good hands. And the days that I had energy, my exercise was the bike, which I still do on the bike, whatever that meant. Five minutes, 10 minutes, 15 minutes, whatever it meant. And I started doing, I just felt that I needed to start doing hand weights. So I did that at home. So between that, and the diet, the weight came off, so that the doctor, the oncologist was quite alarmed that I will walk in and she's like, you've lost weight, I can see it get on the scale. And I'll be lunch. Of course, I lost weight when you eat to help, you know, so Well, the way I'm eating, you're going to lose weight. So I'd be like arguing back like, right. So I was probably her past and then with my husband, because I was exercising, the body actually turned up. I lost weight and got fit. I've actually said to people this year, I went and got healthy. Because that's how I feel I honestly feel I'm healthy. I've become more healthy now. I'm more healthy now than what I was pre the journey.

Helen Christian: 31:36

Daniel I'll just make a little comment. Yes. The things that Christina described that she felt after starting her chemo, people come in without cancer, that are quite ill. They're there, they've got chronic diseases, they've got all sorts of things. Christina, what she described, people start that way for their health journey, generally, and they can't walk five, five minutes. So she was able to do with chemo and cancer, what other people who don't have that can't do. So she was actually quite healthy from the pretty much of the Paleo diet that I had a one and the exercise for her digestion. So she already came into it with a level of health that other people actually don't have that come to the clinic, because they've got no energy, they can't. They have no stamina, they have chronic disease issues. She just doesn't know that that's them, because she doesn't know the clinic. She's talking from her own perspective. So although she had energy issues there energy issues that pertain to her. If you compare that with the picture that she had to somebody else, who technically doesn't have a life threatening illness, you'd find that they will comparable, which is truly amazing. Now,

Daniel Baden: 33:00

yeah, I've already worked out that Christine is a pretty amazing person.

Helen Christian: 33:04

She's an amazing person.

Daniel Baden: 33:07

One of the curiosities to me is that your cancer diagnosis and either one of you can respond was downgraded. And the severity was downgraded. Was that something that they said started high and said no downgrading it? Or did they say, Oh, we made a mistake was actually never that aggressive in the first place.

Christina: 33:28

I'll just quickly answer that. And Helen can jump on with that. So after two rounds of chemo, we then had an operation and the decision was with dual am sick to me, right, so they did the lump sick to me at the same time, they did another biopsy of the lymph nodes while I was under and then they made the call that we need an axillary clearance, they needed to take the notes out, because there was two that did come back with residual disease in there. So just as a result of that, I'm sick to me and that and the testing that went on after the operation, that's when the downgrading happened. So to me the way I've understood that as a result of all that was done previously, there was still residual cancer, but the the size of the tumors, like some had shrunk like 80% 90% Others were 70 Like there was significant reduction in everything that took place. So my oncologist I think, and this is just me now it's not her, I think with with how well my body responded, and with the minimal side effects that I had, which was pretty much fatigue. That was really it. I think she was really hoping for a complete response, as she would put it like that, that there will be absolutely no residual disease. So afterwards I I felt like I was counseling to Christians. There was still some residual disease. I said, it's okay. Like from where we were, to where we are, we've done well, like we just day by day we continue the journey. I'm good. I'm good. Because, yes, it was a good response. I just wanted a complete response. That that's how that played out to me.

Daniel Baden: 35:26

OK so there's a little bit of residual cancer. So what happened next?

Christina: 35:30

because of the lymph nodes more than anything, so out of the 21, lymph nodes they took there was there was four that still had traces of the disease, and from a couple of millimeters to a bit more than that. So it was just it was enough for the oncologist say, the treatments got to continue. I was told though pre operation that regardless of the response itself, that because of her too, I had about another so many cycles of targeted treatment, that I that was strongly recommended. So I was always committed to that, like I was always I was committed that I will start the journey and we'll finish it completely. So the oncologist did mention that based on the results, we may need to up that, that treatment plan, which is exactly what's happened. So they I'm now back on a combined targeted chemo treatment every three weeks,

Daniel Baden: 36:32

Helen, throughout the targeted chemo, Christina's liver enzymes and C reactive protein the inflammation marker increased. How did you deal with that? How did you see that as an issue?

Helen Christian: 36:46

Well, I just I know that once it starts going that way, he can impede how doctors can apply chemotherapy and targeted therapy. And it's one of the reasons when it goes south that they stopped, which I given Christina's profile on the type of cancer she had, I thought that that will not be a good thing. I was buoyed by the fact that Christina didn't mention but I read one of her reports, two of the tumors are collapsed in on themselves. So they kind of pretty much were resolving already disappeared. So I knew that she needed this to completely finish it. So her CRP was 100, which was really, really high from Nora. And her liver enzymes, which had been normal before went through the roof. So I needed to sort of sort this out really, really quickly. I put her on a very extensive liver herbal protocol that she taught for not even that long, and they went back to normal quickly with the CRP. She was actually already on an anti inflammatory diet. However, Christina strongly felt that she's really Christina is wonderful in that she knows herself quite well. She felt that the keto diet that we were doing when we were making the diet a lot more keto, the day or two before chemo and the day off chemo, that that was affecting the type of inflammation that was happening given that she was on chemo as well. And also her ankle started swelling and she thought that was from the Keto. She started some loose leaf teas with a lot of it had Anna sitting close to them the peppercorns and I liberalized the heaviness of the Keto a little bit. So instead of I think maybe if I remember correctly, two days before we did just a little bit before and the day off. And so it was like maybe two or three days of keto only, but she was never allowed to go back on the starches or the dairies or the any of that. It was that she had a little bit more legumes, or a little bit more fruit or a little bit of something where, where and the CRP went down to 72 hours, it went from 100 to 36. Wow. It was really, really quick hurt because we had prepared her body it responded really well to whatever we did to it. So the doctor was quite amazed. So yeah, that's what that's what I did.

Daniel Baden: 39:11

I'm guessing that for liver enzymes, you use formulas that were based on St. Mary's or milk thistle products. Yep, yep.

Helen Christian: 39:18

And I gave curcumin for in quite high doses, as well as the other stuff that inflammation.

Daniel Baden: 39:26

Curcumin or Tumeric is a well known anti inflammatory, a chemo oncology supportive drug. There are some interesting studies on her using various FOLFOX therapies and other therapies, enhancing the activity of some of those chemo drugs so so good choices and well done and you got the result you needed. Christina You went through quite a number of sessions of chemo, then you went on to radiotherapy as well. How were you feeling about that?

Christina: 39:50

I wasn't looking forward to it. It was it was really designed. I can't explain it with chemo. Yeah, I'd be nervous in the morning and it was fine as soon as they got the job. I gave me I would settle down and be like, Okay, we're on the way and I go into prayer and meditation or whatever. But with with radiotherapy radiation, I just, I just was not looking forward to it, it was really bizarre. But what happened, then my son started hospital rotation, so he no longer be with me. And I had to go through five weeks of treatment. So 25 daily treatments on Sunday. So my husband took me every morning, and we went very early, because he needed to get to our business, and run it. So we were the first there. And it was so amazing having George next to me, and he's he's a Strong man, strong faith strong in stature. His words are always positive, he speaks hope, and he speaks life. And I can't emphasize if anyone listens to this, and if it's a partner, or a very close person, who is supporting someone going through the journey of cancer, speak life, to speak life, regardless of what your eyes see, or what you're told, just speak life like to have this man of mine say to me, I find you beautiful, or you are, you're amazing, your strength, just affirmations and just reinforcement. Even when I'm tired, you know, like, you go and rest, we've got to, like, you know, we're good, like, we're good, or I know you're tired, but we're going to for a drive to the beach, even if it means we just sit in the car, and we can't get out. But he was gonna get me out. It was gonna get me out that he got me in the car and got me to the beach. And it got me out. Right. So I'm so having him take me to radiation, and just going in and then coming out back through the doors and seeing him. It was amazing for me. Yeah, I can't explain it. And obviously, these people in this profession, from Helen, to the oncologist to the doctors, to the nurses, they are called to look after people. So the way they do it is with a spirit of excellence. They have such amazing empathy and experience. I was always, I always felt very comfortable. But I don't I can't explain it to you whether it was you know, you're, you're lying on a bed, you're half naked. I mean, they're all very honorable, very respectful. Like if I think I felt my most vulnerable, going through radiation. It was it was the most bizarre sensation. And it's only you're only there for like, I think the treatment was about five minutes. So you're not there a lot, but it was my most confronting.

Daniel Baden: 42:52

I understand. Yeah, Helen, knowing that Christina was going into radiation, had you done anything else to prepare her body for it, and reduce minimal and reduce the side effects? Yep,

Helen Christian: 43:05

there was quite a few things we did. And if people don't know radiations burning, and they burn you from the outside, in. So that's what we were facing. And the burning was, of course, it's gonna make you very vulnerable when you're a woman, and it's your breast being burned and mutilated. Because it has to be for you to survive. So I had that in mind. And I knew for starters, that the curcumin, it's also very highly regarded for radiation therapy. So there's, there's papers on it that it will help but she had already been on that. What I did was, I had had her own collagen for her gut. But I restarted Christina on that, because I knew that it would help with the repair of the skin. There's a herb called coat and opsis that has clinical trials, that protects you from burning from the inside, started her on that as well. And I also started topicals straightaway, there's a lot of research on natural therapies, being extremely effective in healing and the healing was amazing. The way the breast tissue looked afterwards was, I was amazed when Christina showed me so fresh aloe vera, vitamin E oil, papaya ointment, all one after the other and they've got different consistency. So you have to know what to put on first, what to put on second, so that they all penetrating after each other, to heal the skin and protect it and not let those burns scar. So I mean, Christina can tell you what it looks like now, but it was amazing. So yes, I prepared her internally and externally physically for what was to come.

Daniel Baden: 44:57

Christina, how are your scars?

Christina: 44:59

I didn't even scar. So I was able to do follow Helens plan, the oncologist did stop a couple of the topical creams. During the duration. She didn't stop the aloe vera. But as soon as it finished, I just went gung ho, like exactly everything that Helen had said just went for it. But even afterwards, apart from like, the changing color, like there was a different, like a darker color, the skin went darker. There was no scars. And what's also interesting, I just had an operation, like radiation started five weeks after the lung six sector me and the axillary clearance, which meant I had two good sized scars. Ready there. No issue, no issue at all. Like they didn't even get read by or anything through it. So and the color is almost back to normal. Now, like with the other British and the sensitivity, Eat, my breasts got sensitive certain areas of it. That's all gone.

Daniel Baden: 46:07

The good news is in July 2023. You were declared all clear?

Christina: 46:14

yes.

Daniel Baden: 46:15

WooHoo!, it's a shock. Yeah. So how did you respond?

Christina: 46:23

Well, we had the operation, and we had to see the breast specialist a week later. So she can just check everything out the wounds and make sure everything's looking well. She was hoping by that time, the results the lab results will be back. So we sat down, she's asking me a whole lot of questions have I been since the operation, etc, etc. All I can see is a number of pages on her table, thinking what are they saying? What is that site? And I was looking at my husband, and then I he she says, You are cancer free? And I looked at it. And I went, What did you just say I'm cancer free? And she goes Yes. Well, like, yeah, I was I not that. It wasn't the case of doubt. But from from day one, I had asked the Lord to allow me to do this with a spirit of excellence. What we start, we will complete but we'll run the race. Well, so in my headspace, I still had a race to continue on. So I didn't go in there even thinking that I was going to get told that so it was, it was phenomenal. I was so so grateful. So grateful.

Daniel Baden: 47:45

I'm sure you were and how was your husband?

Christina: 47:46

he was just yeah, he was over the moon. But he, Daniel from day, not day one of the diagnosis. We got the diagnosis. He had to reconcile himself to it. And he had to go through his own journey about the what ifs. Yeah, what are you? Right, so we had to have that, that vulnerable discussion. And just, and I always had to shake him and say, Your faith, or your headache, and let's go and he's like, I'm a man who loves you. And I want you well, and I'm allowed to feel this way. And I'm like, back off Chris, like so. But once once, he allowed himself a couple of weeks to go through what he had to go through. He then started confessing in the house, this will be a journey of healing. We will get healing not just in you, but we'll get healing over our finances. We will be it'll be a year of restoration. And that was his daily confession. So when that when we got the cancer free for him, it was just like, I have stood solidly on the Word of God I my faith, yeah, and excetera and we've been surrounded with amazing, professional people. Like we can't thank the likes of Helen, my two oncologist, this bro specialist, the nurse, it has been a phenomenal journey. You know, like, so grateful and so humbled at who has been put in on my path to healing.

Daniel Baden: 49:26

You had a number of lymph nodes taken out. And commonly when that happens, and I think a lot of our listeners that have had to deal with breast cancer either as a practitioner or as a patient would be quite interested in this that you had no lymph, lymphoedema, lymphadenopathy , you know, you had no swelling associated with the removal of lymph nodes. Wonderful. What a great outcome. But Helen, I'm sure you had a hand in this. What was your little magic trick around reducing the swelling?

Helen Christian: 49:59

Well, The swelling afterwards, from a lymphatic clearance is really common. And it's not just the swelling, the ability to use your arm really reduces, you can't lift anything, there's weakness, you can't raise your arm past your waist. And you need a lot of physio to even be able to use your arm. With Christina, I prepared her for this. But I didn't think that they were gonna go in there and take out all the lymph nodes, because it was only in a couple, I wasn't expecting that. So I thought, Oh, my goodness, she's going to have major issues. I showed her how to do her own lymphatic drainage and dry skin brushing, the fact that we had started weights, you know, if you prepare going into these things, and start weight and take out all the starches and starches draw swelling, you get the result that Christina got. So yeah, the dry skin brushing the lymphatic drainage, and the weights and also doing exercising water, it takes pressure off, there's no impact on the body. And there's a thing that happens with the exchange of water in the body and the water out of the body through the through the medium of h2o either in the beach or in the ball where it stops the swelling. So that's there were just simple things that we did. Christina had a fantastic result, she'll tell you, they were amazed they had to stop her from putting her arm up overhead, which she could do almost straightaway. Because they were saying, Oh, you shouldn't be able to do that you better stop doing it. Yeah, Christina can tell you there was not, there was no problem.

Daniel Baden: 51:47

Can you just explain to us what skin brushing is.

Helen Christian: 51:51

So dry skin brushing is a very ancient form of lymphatic massage. And it's not a normal brush that you brush your hair with. It's a very specifically made brush with specific fibers. And there's a specific way of doing it for yourself, you usually don't before a shower or a bath. I do lymphatic drainage, a lot of these are dying therapies, people are no longer taught how to do this, which is a shame. So you kind of brush up the body of the legs. And with breast cancer, you put your arm over your head and you brush it down the arm and up towards where the major lymphatic outlets are in the body. And that helps your lymphatic drainage system to work more efficiently. Because there's no lymph nodes, they've taken them out. So it can't pump that fluid. So you're helping it to do it. So when you do it with a brush that's made for that specifically, it works quite well.

Daniel Baden: 52:48

Are these brushes readily available? Online? Yeah, one of the things I've noticed in my journey as a practitioner is naturopath myself, and having dealt with cancer patients for many years also, is that people that have some sort of belief system, whether it's a religious belief system, or some other spiritual belief system that does or doesn't involve a god depends on where they're at, seem to do a lot better in outcomes. And you know, Christina, in her discussion with us today, you know, made that quite clear. So when you have patients that, you know, haven't come from any sort of belief background, how do we talk to our patients? How do we encourage them to stay positive, and really get behind what everyone's doing to support them?

Helen Christian: 53:40

Obviously, in my clinic, there are a lot of different people from a lot of different backgrounds with a lot of different belief systems. You need to in that case, if they have no belief system whatsoever, and I found everyone with any belief system always feels better, is that they need to draw on their own innate, you need to teach them how to draw on their own innate powers of restoration and healing, and to teach them that they're actually there. Because if they've got nowhere to anchor themselves, when they come in, and they're given a possibly life threatening diagnosis, they're clutching everywhere, they don't know where to settle themselves, they don't know where to look for that internal resilience. And there are a lot of techniques that have been actually research that you can do whether you have a belief system or not, that you use your own mind to heal yourself. So I teach them those things and I make them do it every every day, usually as they're falling asleep, so that they feel that they have control. So feeling a complete lack of control when you have no belief system is the main thing that people say people that have a belief system have some Need to hinge on and lean on. Whereas people that don't need to then find something to lean on for themselves. So you need to give them that. So there's a lot of techniques there that bring in that spirituality that's out there and nature's healing energy, I direct them to a lot of the research that's done by NASA that's done by a lot of psycho neurological doctors, and that actually track the brain and how it changes when you do these techniques. And they might teach it to them, because a lot of them are very sciency. So you can't send them to a church or send them to a spiritual group, they just don't believe in that. So then you need to do it a different way.

Daniel Baden: 55:38

And that's a really good explanation. Thank you. I think it's just so important to get people to believe in themselves and believe that they have the opportunity to heal. Well, what an amazing experience. And throughout the conversation, Christina, you mentioned from time to time, that it was a life changing a life enhancing experience in many ways. How did you come out of all of this, you seem to have just been so positive throughout the whole experience? How are you now,

Christina: 56:08

what I've discovered about myself is, my faith is an anchor, and it's alive. And it's true to me, and that I am resilient. And I do believe, like in the Word of God, so I like when Helen was just talking about the techniques that she has to teach people which don't have this faith system. So like one of those techniques for myself, for example, is, I would daily confess, I am an overcomer. You like, so I'd be there's affirmations that I'm saying and that they were based on the Word of God, right. But but it just brought healing and, and strength. So my transformation is just it's been a realignment, it's just been, like we started off mentioning the stress through financial battle and turmoil and all of that, have I overcome that completely? No. But I am so much better in dealing with that now than what I was at the beginning. So that that, for me has been a change, like a change of thinking of approach. I'm also quite content now to be content with today, instead of worrying about tomorrow, so that's been a massive change. For me, as well, like tomorrow will come and it will bring its own challenges, and we'll deal with it. But let's be thankful for being in the moment, as well.

Daniel Baden: 57:37

Helen, one of the things that you brought up throughout our discussion today was the notion of knowing your patient. And I love that. Because as practitioners, as holistic practitioners, we have the time to better understand our patients and spend time really knowing them. And I'm grateful that you brought that up, because it really helps us understand how to go forward with their patients and knowing what their tolerances are, both within the medical system, but also within the natural medical system. And you know, knowing your patients is to me just gold. Guys, thank you so much. This has been an amazing conversation. I really, really enjoyed it. I really did. And we always had me crying a couple of times, Christina, thank you. Yeah, no, it's been wonderful. And Helen, you

Christina: 58:24

Thank you Daniel, thank you. It's been an honor to know, I'm so amazed by you always, I've known you for quite just share the journey. Thank you. a while. And your ability to see things in people your ability to understand what people need at that time in their life. And you know, one of the things you're very good at, I think, is helping patients prepare for whatever is ahead of them. And I think that foresight is really, really critical to the amazing results that you seem to get quite consistently. So well done. Helen, well done Christina, thank you guys.