Understanding Autism

Something in our environment or food or medical approach is causing the rate of Autism diagnoses to rise sharply. This case study demonstrates the power of a holistic approach which in reality is the only way to tackle such a complicated condition.  In this episode we follow the patients improvement from 3 to 16 years old. He has a remarkably wonderful outcome which will make you smile or cry (or perhaps both at the same time). Profound change is possible with a deep understanding.

Transcript

Daniel Baden: 0:09

Autism is a hot topic, it's a neurodevelopmental condition, of variable severity. Modern medicine sees autism as a lifetime incurable condition. incurable means a lot of things, to a lot of different people and I'm just wondering if people who get treated holistically can actually get through autism, and be devoid of symptoms, perhaps technically not a cure, perhaps it is. But at the end of the day, I've come across patients that have seen the naturopath of the holistic practitioner, and are no longer facing most of the symptoms of autism. Today, I'm talking to the lovely Judy Salmon. Hello, Judy. Hi, Daniel. Judy is an expert in autism has 25 years experience. Today, she'll be talking about an amazing case of a patient she saw. Tell us about your patient.

Judy Salmon: 1:38

This is a young boy who came to me just before he was three, a couple months after he had been diagnosed with autism. And his parents had found out about me through a health food shop, which carried some of the books, had written a book with one of the moms that I originally purchased work with, mainly around diet and underlying issues with children with autism and ADHD. Because back then we had to make everything we had to cook our own breads, who to everything, there wasn't anything on the market like there is today. So we were doing it to give hope to other families and given recipes and all that sort of guidance and a deeper understanding of some of the issues that we knew way back in the early 2000s. What was underlying autism. And then of course, there's even more I know, now that that I even knew back in those that I think I worked this worked with this little boy in 2009. And I can tell you now have even a greater understanding and even more underlying things that I have to watch for the children and adults with on the spectrum. That's been a very big learning journey with these children of which this sort of boy has been one of the big teachers for me and basically, to any practitioners or parents or families or grandparents anyone who's listening, there is always hope. And what we're being told, and still are being told all these years after when I first started working with it is there's not much you can do. And I can tell you that's not true. There's a lot that you can do to help these children and they are very, very ill children often.

Daniel Baden: 3:25

Yeah, look that is fascinating. And that's certainly the experience that I've seen personally and certainly talking to colleagues as well over time. I'm very interested in the diagnostic criteria. So the child came to you with a diagnosis of autism. Although the diagnosis is not all that clear, because it's not like you can just draw blood and say definitively you have or haven't got autism is a whole lot of diagnostic criteria. I guess some of the common things are reduced eye contact, lack of response to their name indifference to the people they love or around them or caregivers perhaps things like intensely focused patterns of behaviors what they say and language skills which are not fully developed or perhaps even go backwards. Have I missed any

Judy Salmon: 4:17

often not ever been there at all

Daniel Baden: 4:19

or not ever been there at all! Yeah, Have I missed anything major

Judy Salmon: 4:23

and yeah, there's also a stimming you know, very sensory overloads hand flapping stimming even odd had children that had been had head banging. So there was little caps on their head to protect their head meltdowns, incredible temper tantrums, crying, poor sleep issues, may go down to sleep and then wake up at you know, anywhere between 12 and three four in the morning squealing and laughing and going like I won't go to sleep till five in the mornings have guaranteed sleep. So it's a combination of Have any or all of these, the probably what they used to be just mild, moderate and severe back in that time when I first started working the children now apparently there's four levels level one to four, with level one very mild to four very severe. So they'll usually parents will come in and say, two three,

Daniel Baden: 5:19

sorry, sorry to interrupt, but does level one or level four? Is that related to the number of symptoms that they have in the scale or the severity of the symptoms that they have existing?

Judy Salmon: 5:32

severity. So if you have a child without no eye contact, no language, absolutely look unwell, totally in there own world have meltdowns, all that sort of things, and even anger underlying issues like seizures or things like that, there would be definitely level four, and a mom's level one would be, we will look at them. And then we know that they might have a bit of language delay, a little bit of our contact, or can look at you, but then you realize they're not responding to quite appropriately, and then to ensure everything in between. As to so it's more the severity.

Daniel Baden: 6:13

And is that what is level one, what we used to call in the old days high functioning,

Judy Salmon: 6:17

yes, some of them not quite as high functioning, I've found over the years a high functioning is back in the early 2000s, early 2000 years, they usually could give you some language at not be quite structure structured or rigid. So they will, you know, they'd be more rigid in their thinking that they'd have, you can see the head nightshirt, I can go to school, the more the quirky kids, the ones that you take to trivia nights with you, because I'll read an encyclopedia, rattle off facts and figures. But they will have features like I remember seeing quite a few talks and lectures back in those early 2000s. But then they would have said through issues and they would ask you not to clap, after they had talked about their journey, because the sensory issues and hold their hands. So, you know, sometimes I would say please don't clap, I can only handle so much noise, I can only handle so much people. So there there would be that sensory overload happening with them. But you can still have a sort of reasonable conversation with them, it'd be quite disjointed. And they could look to be very broad. By now when I think back at university when I did my science degree. And I can tell you, I probably now realize a couple of my lecturers were on the spectrum. Yes, at the time, but I look back now and go, Oh, now that's a very high functioning Asperger's type person. Nowadays, especially over the last nine years, the severity of the children, it's getting worse and a lot sicker. Children are coming in now that we still have that variety, we still have a huge spectrum and game that a lot of work to be done with these children now.

Daniel Baden: 8:07

Oh, look, it's definitely getting worse. And I'm really looking forward to our discussion. Because over the last 10 years, the rate of autism in Australia and other western countries has tripled. And we're talking about more than that?

Judy Salmon: 8:21

when I started it was like about, well as big as was probably one in 10,000, ASD was about one 5000. So we're talking around 1999 2000. And I was just talking to one of my mom's is with us at all, what are we up to now? They're always on. One of my parents is a doctor. Her child is on the

spectrum. And she's saying 1: 8:43

36

Daniel Baden: 8:46

Wow, okay, because you know, the rights are different around the world. And this is what I'm looking forward to getting into you a little bit about because obviously, something is changing in the child's environment, diet, medical schedule, whatever it is something is is changing. And there are all sorts of studies from around the world. But we do know some populations are far more affected. And I looked at the World Health Organization statistics the other day, and seems as though many of the Arab countries, for example, are much more affected than some other countries in Europe. So you have to start to wonder what's happening, whether it's diet or relationship to particular medications, or vaccines or whatever it is, that's affecting that. And that's part of the curiosity for me, but also the diagnostic criteria. Do you think that's different country to country? Or is that fairly standardized? globally? You may not know the answer to that, but I'm just wondering if you do.

Judy Salmon: 9:50

Oh, that's a good question. Actually, I think typically in the Western world, so I have a friend who's a developmental psychologist, so she's done a lot of that diagnosing, and then trained up pediatricians on how to how to do the diagnosing so then they do follow a certain criteria that they have to meet, then they can ride with the children are they I find that a lot of pediatricians just doing it now. And so I can't say whether they've actually been training, or whether they're just saying it now as well. But I must admit, even if the children come through just through a pediatrician and not through a developmental psychologist, you only have to take one look at them. And you know that you've got problems. And then I do a lot of countries from Asia, Asia, now I have a huge Indian community. What because I love homeopathy. So once I knew I was a homeopath as well, there are like flocking to and they once I was getting results, so I do this big Indian community that I even do overseas in India, you know, I do phone consults and, and Bangladesh and Pakistan. And one of the things that are all in Nepal as well. And one of the things they say to me is, we never had this before, why are we all of a sudden getting it. So it's massive numbers going on in Asia. But they always said they never knew about it before, they never really saw before.

Daniel Baden: 11:16

going through this case, we'll explore some of your thinking around some of the patterns you've seen, because they will help us understand. And often the experience that the practitioners at the coalface is quite different to what we see published as clinical studies. And I find that a curiosity as well. So that's across every conditional piece. Literally. Does the three year old have a name? First Name? Lachy.. Okay. So when Lachy came to see you. He had no eye contact.

Judy Salmon: 11:47

Yeah, it was very poor. And so he was actually an IVF, baby. But they had fallen pregnant on the second round. And so this is your important I find is to take really good case, taking and go right back through pregnancy, and work your way through because then you can actually start to go okay, that's what probably look at that. That's a possibility. And, you know, I start to formulate where I think things have gone wrong in do have, as I've said, and learned over the time, and I say it practitioners that do talk to me and come to me is you got to get out of the box to work with these kids. Got to throw every paradigm that you think about autism out the window, and they're observing these children is number one priority, and their behavior is their language to us. So we know where we're going to go with these children and what is more than likely going to be underlying what's happening with his children. So I don't see it as good, bad or anything behavior I watch and observe because it helps me understand the underlying issues that I'm going to have to deal with

Daniel Baden: 12:54

mom or dad or the caregiver brings the child in to see you. Yep. Their nonverbal. Yes, no eye contact. There's no response to your questions or smiles. And and how do you start?

Judy Salmon: 13:10

Well, like as I start with, you know, what's going on with him, like, milestones? And why are straightaway what anything in that first G was there any problems like allergies, Xmas colleague projectile vomiting or anything like that straightaway? Because that tells me is it problems going on? Right there in that very first CI, then I moved into milestones, of course, you know, walking, talking, crawling was whether delays in any of those, this little boy, he had had feeding problems when he was little, he was born a bit early and joined us. And it was a little underweight when he was two, that he had all already been put on treating because Mum had gone into contractions at eight weeks. Before do so we had steroids going into him, then for his lungs in case he was going to come early. And then that settle down. And then he did come at 38 weeks. But we had suckling problems, feeding problems straightaway. And then when he went on formula and sort of went quite fine. You walked at 14 months, but he wasn't really speaking. There wasn't much language there. He was very clean. And we'd be with mum, very sensitive, he is a sensitive, even now as a as an older boys is quite sensitive. So you've got that something you need to really take note of as a practitioner sensitivity of the children as well as Ruth, there wasn't really it would be cleaned to mum, but there was no affection. When they came to me. He'd had a couple months of speech so he had a couple of words then started to happen. But he couldn't like you could ask him things but he had trouble responding. So his expressive side was very poor and his expressive understanding was extremely poor, you could like rope learn the odd words, you know, like this speech or OT, he would have incredible meltdowns and throwing himself to the floor and he can lash out really badly.

Daniel Baden: 15:14

But would you say things like meltdowns and head banging, for example, an expression of pain or discomfort? Or do you think there's something else going on there?

Judy Salmon: 15:24

Yeah, it depends what age they are when they come in, but definitely a head banging children. Now I really know that I've got dietary and gut problems going straight away. That's not normal. And they probably got terrible migraines. That's why I said you don't look at it as bad behavior. Look at it as what are you trying to tell me. So once we've sorted through those things the head banging goes, we never have it back again. That's just beautiful. Great. Yeah. And the meltdowns, it can be because they are in pain, and they don't know how to express it all to tell the parents, you know, I'm in pain. So if you imagine it's got terrible colic pains, you know, and you can't say anything or cry, I can only imagine what these children going through to tell you the truth after watching him all over these years. You know, and frustration too is human, they're a bit older is that they can't speak. So we get a lot of meltdowns and tantrums and things also from frustration. And that lack of being able to communicate is also a huge problem as well.

Daniel Baden: 16:25

Often premie babies are put on antibiotics early. Was this child put on antibiotics as well?

Judy Salmon: 16:30

No, I don't. I hadn't had that written down in history. We just had this steroid pre birth.

Daniel Baden: 16:36

And you mentioned that he will put on to formula was he also breastfed?

Judy Salmon: 16:39

Yes, they did try but he had suckling problems. So you know that problem. So that's why they put him on to formula

Daniel Baden: 16:48

Is suckling a common issue in autism.

Judy Salmon: 16:52

No I haven't found that to be the case. Occasionally, I get baby's that are having suckling problems. But it's not in every case, it's not something that I hear a lot, but occasionally, I will hear it. And then they will be put onto formula. So those children will go on to a formula, or then you got mums that just come for a speed or whatever. So then the baby goes on to formula as well, for the baby is screaming, lactose intolerant or food intolerance since launch formula.

Daniel Baden: 17:25

Yeah. And what about sleep? Did that come up as an issue?

Judy Salmon: 17:28

Well he ended up at one in three months, that three months he went to daycare, which you can push very hard. So even at that, literally, there was a problem showing up then. And then you started to have constant cold ear infection. So there comes the antibiotic, right? Okay. Lots and lots of antibiotics. And then around one year old, he also had a bad guest, Dr. Infections, gut infection. And then he had to have grommets put into his ears. So surgery and settings. And then after that, he ended up going into really that's depression anxiety, terrible, terrible, clean trees. And his choose now we're really not formed and incredibly smelly, and it would vary between mushy and quite constipated. So after that one year, we were already having problems. But amazingly, his sleep was pretty okay. Yeah, it isn't. Me had terrible gut stuff and chronic illnesses going on. straightaway. I was like, well, good. We had the early steroid scene, early formularies mean, lots of infections, because he was, you know, daycare early, anybody so gut was gone. So straightaway, I'm going gut problems as definitely health problems. And in early vaccine, because we constantly are infections and all that starting from a very young age as well. But even though when he had those sort of things, he actually was a good climber and he's gross motor skills are quite good, but is fine motor went brain and space and boundaries was a real issue. So he couldn't walk into his space without using applause. So therefore very, who would you go near and play with all that sort of things were going on? And then we had sensitivity so we had all the sensory issues so now noise handover is is so the really harsh noise but he would love music and even love dancing. And the other big thing we see with the children coming around this age is food and diet problems. So everyone's very self restricting by now. Andrew drank milk all day, which is a clue clue clue that we have been problems and the biscuits and chips and that was it.

Daniel Baden: 19:50

So sugar, salt,fat, carbohydrates, gluten, dairy. Okay.

Judy Salmon: 19:57

Self restricting self restrict humidity. So we know we have problems as well happening too, because he was going into sort of restriction quite severely.

Daniel Baden: 20:06

B ut when you start to look at dietary changes, I guess you, you, as a practitioner need to take a deep breath and go. Okay, let's see how this goes.

Judy Salmon: 20:16

Well, he also does up in cradle cap at birth, and he had some eczema. So we had that already stuff going on as well. So that was how he presented to me when he first came. So there, there will be issues that I had to look at and work my way through. So I knew straight away that drinking milk or dying and just eating wheat products was die hard to get. So we have to take much of Britain very, very free diet, ASAP. But of course, parents freak out. Yes, so that you're going to hear a lot when they're drinking that much milk. I have discovered over the years that you've got to start weaning him because it literally is a food addiction, food addiction. And we know from the effects of gluten, and casein and dairy, that does lead to like opiate type things. So you're an addict. And

Daniel Baden: 21:10

that's the same with adults with allergies as well.

Judy Salmon: 21:13

Yeah, exactly. So we started doing on the gluten free dairy free diet. And I said to mom, you know, if we can't keep track of milk up, learn to swing down with every bit of water, and just weaned them down to get them off the scent. It's like an addiction, and I just got with some other children previously, the parents that went cold turkey Drug Reaction

Daniel Baden: 21:40

How long does it take to wean off milk, if you water down slowly

Judy Salmon: 21:45

get them off within, you know, about six to eight weeks. Okay. So once we get down to that halfway mark, we really start to knock off that addiction part. And that sense of smell that they have will start to decrease. So they'll just start to go. But we I mean, I've had some superduper addicted kids over the years. And that's the way I've got them all off. Without too much stress for mom and child doing it.

Daniel Baden: 22:13

At the same time, presumably you're offering some sort of option in food or drink. Yeah, so

Judy Salmon: 22:18

we give the options of what else we can do. And then the foods you know, I'm moving across soon, too. We can say now I'm gluten free biscuits or down I'm slowly so we'll start with the biscuits or the characters first, before the break, and start to just drop that addiction down, and then start to introduce gluten free breads or parents make up stuff muffins, or we change the wrap.

Daniel Baden: 22:45

So where do you start to see a shift or a change in the gut? And or the behavior? Is it the poo their poo starts to become more regular and solid or something else happen?

Judy Salmon: 22:58

Oh, well, we started with the dot while I also set up a store result, because that takes a couple of weeks to get seen. And then a couple of months, I think it was like just a couple of months or something later, we had the store results in that. And we'll be done with the diet. And there was a big difference.

Daniel Baden: 23:19

What are you looking for in a stool analysis?

Judy Salmon: 23:23

That I'll go into in a minute. Because they know I'll be underlying the kids then. So just from the diet alone, he was a lot calmer. He was starting to learn better. He's starting to repeat words. And his speech was improving. His sensory levels were coming down. And he was more friendly and interacting and there was decreasing tantrums. But that was just from a diet.

Daniel Baden: 23:45

Was that commented on by parents, teachers.

Judy Salmon: 23:49

Yes. That was by the parents and the speech therapist. Wonderful. Yep. And we never tell her we, you know, I always make I said parents, we don't tell the therapists where to start, because then we get a true feedback from the therapist. Great idea. Yeah. And because they'll go, oh, what's going on? I know what's happening. All of a sudden, all their work that they can't seem to get happening, just the children start to go. So that's how I always say don't tell the therapist when we're staying because it's not just me saying the parents and we're also getting other feedback from the therapist as well to confirm the other main thing then we come to is underlying these children is going infection is massive. Majority. There's a small percentage that don't but they'll have other issues that we'll talk about as well. This little one has had pretty much everything that I see under all children. So that's, as you can see from the photo, it would have been wired up at that severe more moderate, so this would be

Daniel Baden: 24:53

for the listeners Judy has sent me a few photos of Locky when he was three and I can a bit later and then one when he was 16. Like a handsome young man.

Judy Salmon: 25:06

Yeah, going fine. No, very smart, but very switched on young. So what we've found out over the years is while I'd started to find out before I got too lucky came in to see me was I started to understand the effect the gut, as well from other children as well. So it was a learning process I've walked through over these years. So first, I started to get the diet, right. Then I started to see there was Candida issues. And we started to do that. And then that was another thing, then, then I was hearing about the gut stuff. So I went to learn all that and you can get that tested. And that's been a step by step process over these years that I've just added more and more to my understanding of what's underlying these children and adults. So we find out there's certain bacteria that really, really impact behavior, and everything about these children. So that's why I get that tested. Always now, I can sort of have guests now what's probably going to come in in the gut test just from experience. So this little boy had strep and Clostridium and he's got huge 88% of his gut was in strep infection, and 53% is Clostridium. We also tested him up with thick bloods as well. So he had a little bit of liver going had inflammatory markers, its ferritin level was 30. That we also tested for celiac, but he wasn't celiac, even though taking him through the diet was having huge impact, but you can have intolerances as we know that still impact as bad. So when I saw the strep infections, now a strep infection is well number one that lactic acid producing bacteria. So we've got a lot of it's like they're running marathons all the time. So there's like tiredness and fatigue and low iron because they balance also like just a quest to iron for their own growth and development. So that can explain low iron levels along with heavy metals will also be low on. So with strep infections we have impacts the children in their cognition. So we have poor focus or memory or learning. We can have language delay. We have sensory issues. We had high anxiety issues, to OCD and all the way to Tourette's.

Daniel Baden: 27:32

I also think I read somewhere that is also associated with phobias and fears.

Judy Salmon: 27:37

yes and so is gluten intolerance. Intolerance? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So often, when we just get these results, we look at what we've just wrote down in the healthiness history of the notes and narrowed it then we start that so I treat the gut infection got I am a homeopath as well. I decided to go well, why not try homeopathy using nosodes. They work brilliantly. Okay,

Daniel Baden: 28:07

can you explain what it is?

Judy Salmon: 28:08

Nosodes. So it is homeopathy that it's actually made from the tissue. So I would be giving back homeopathic strep for infection, or candida for candida infection, or I got back Clostridium, for Clostridium infection. Like treats like.

Daniel Baden: 28:28

well, and with homeopathy, if you're prescribing a nosode, the lower potencies might be more for more physical symptoms, and the higher potencies for more psychological symptoms. Is that the case?

Judy Salmon: 28:40

Yes, sort of, sort of, it's a good way of sort of thinking about it. So yeah, I used about 30 C. So I'm also impacting at the physical but because we've got so many, at the mental and emotional side of things, I needed to be touching that as well. And so that that seemed to work really quite well. So it's sometimes I'll go depending occupy treat wounds with Cena, I'll go to 15 or 12 I'll go load for that. More physical, but when I've got more, bigger impact happened to the children, I've found 30 C, works, and it's still working to this day. So

Daniel Baden: 29:19

one thing I absolutely love about homeopathy is, is when you get a right there's some a lot of skill involved in getting it right. But when you do get a right the results are so quick.

Judy Salmon: 29:29

Yes, exactly right. So then I started adding into then I added in along with the diet. Then I started treating on the strip and Clostridium infections. So then we went to just six weeks later because I usually do about every six weeks when I first start with the kids to make sure I've got everything okay. And he had had a little bit of cough which I treated homeopathically with Bella Donna sort of that quickly and then when they came in November when we added in the stripping look Australian animals, lots more improvements, better eating more alert, happy, even better sleep, and they thought he was sleeping. Even better now. And on sleep problems are also with stroke as well. And now, all the family and people were noticing, increasing that how much he was improving. He was like, wow, he was Wow, his twos were firming. And coming back to normal smell was going and he was getting much more a sense of self. So I went, Yeah, we're off and running.

Daniel Baden: 30:37

What is the sense of self in child like this?

Judy Salmon: 30:40

All of that start looking in the mirror? Like, who's that in the mirror way that they wouldn't have cared if there was a mirror they're all been seen before?

Daniel Baden: 30:49

That's amazing. Yeah, they must. I mean, when Mum walks past or dad walks past and sees the child all of a sudden looking in the mirror, they must just be shocked.

Judy Salmon: 31:00

Well, they often get shocked by lots of. But yeah, but I mean, that's that I know that part is, is I get excited when parents come in and say Are they looking mirror like they're really checking themselves. Fantastic, because that's normal developmental phases. So we're switching back the child back into the normal developmental aspects that went to sleep poor going to sleep because the children are shut down. For whatever length of time you buy, reopen them again. So they they miss out of all those developmental phases. So gotta go back and restart them. So and when they start pointing and imitating or when they watching, you know that video they've watched 9 million times already, but now they're actually singing and dancing appropriately with it. Rather than squealing at it or just staring at the video, if Simon says they'll actually do it. Those sorts of things is what we're looking at.

Daniel Baden: 31:57

Yeah. Well, Judy, you're making me smile.

Judy Salmon: 32:03

A lot at work. And it's my joy.

Daniel Baden: 32:06

Absolutely. Very good. And what else did you test for in the gut? Anything else?

Judy Salmon: 32:12

No, because that was both. That's what came up. I mean, the tests that I get done, and I try like Healthscope, back then and Bioscreen, but Bioscreen tend to give me better result, not paid by any of these companies. Trust me, I just do my I'm an X research scientists. So that's been really handy for me, because I only go we bought really works. And they're not clinically I see works in my practice, yes, I was able to fine tune down in which groups I was working for, for what products and testing. So we're zooming into along there quite, quite for a while. And then we went through a period where he was doing great at preschool now and more word sentences, singing songs getting stubborn. There, we went through a stage of grinding T's finger up the night, which was ones and when we've got such a high level of gut infection like he'd had, it's just a reminder to tell people that especially practitioners that might be listening was the ones we've got to get those infections down, whatever else is hiding underneath their skin start to appear. So do watch for wounds, because then all of a sudden, there'll be a change in their behavior, like all the sudden you've got more irritable, grinding cheese, finger up the nose or den bum, you know, and then I just treated that homeopathically. And then we got that sorted. So we went along, and that was all really going really, really well. And that then I will we'll go into the MMR, you know, we'll start a vaccine reversal sort of thing. And so I use from Tony Smith, homeopath from the Netherlands, and it's done in full potency, so 30 C, or 201 M and obtaining in Homeopathics. Again, and but it's done once a week, just by jobs, I should do it on a Friday night, if they have a reaction, it's over the weekend, and they're settling down again by preschool school, and parents are home watching. And so then I can learn to if there's a problem there as well. So that just that's just works that I found. And so we do one week in that next week, bottle, two barrel three bottle port. So that's what I call one round and I usually do two rounds. Because I luckily did it with one of my children. It didn't do any reactions in the first round, but when we run into the second round, then we had big reactions. So I would have missed it if I just got all that set. So I always do two rounds now all the time to make sure I don't miss any children at all.

Daniel Baden: 34:43

I find the whole vaccine and autism situation fascinating because if you look at pretty much all the current studies, they will say there's no relationship whatsoever. However you speak to any practitioner and they say well, or any mother and, they'll say, you know, he was getting along fine until he had whatever vaccine it was and things changed. And that change may be as subtle as a sledgehammer for some kids, or it may just be really subtle and just change over time. And I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts around that?

Judy Salmon: 35:18

Yeah, I've seen different ???, especially now with the amount of experience and all the different types of kids that I've had. So I've seen some that, you know, they're really not showing a lot by one year, then I know that those scenes are having very subtle build up, cumulative effects. And then then when they have that MMR one year just worsens it. So it looks like, but when you do their history, you actually see all their going, they've been going all the way the parents just didn't realize it's a first child, I wonder

Daniel Baden: 35:50

if this is just speculation, if the vaccine has different impact on different populations based on their genes or their diet, so the country of where the study is done, on whether the vaccines have an impact or not, will strongly relate to what the genetic background of those people is. Because we know from other vaccines, studies and other medical studies, so many different people react to so many different things from different backgrounds. And they're often not looked at in the research.

Judy Salmon: 36:24

Because there's still really no research because vaccines are safe and effective. So if you dont look you don't find evidence. So as I say to people, and lead again, what's changed in the last 20 years is also the amount of vaccines that are given has increased hugely. I mean, even at that two for six month one infinex hechsher is 16. One, but we have no idea what the synergy that vaccine alone, and you there have had a reaction to which part of it? are they reacting? Or is it to the whole of that infinex hexa. And then they're also given hep B. And then they've got rotavirus, and then they've got hip and you know, on and on. So what is it 19 By six months now, I have to read the schedule every year to check what what else I added. It's not listening, it's every year, at least one more will be added in. And I think it's really important for you know, my major as a scientist, immunology major, a baby's immune system doesn't even kick in till six to nine months, if everything is going well. All they have to start with is their IGA at the mucosal as a protection and then mom's colostrum at three days or two to three days whenever it comes in gives all the immune kickstart factors to start the immune system kick starting and going. And then that humoral system where you make antibodies doesn't really kick in till seven to nine months or so how can you make antibodies at all six 810 1214 1516 way? So this is this is addressed to me as an immunology major, I just shaved my head and got what textbooks that everybody else read.

Daniel Baden: 38:13

If a mother is not able to breastfeed for any reason, how do you manage to maintain that child's immune system if they're not getting the same level of immunoglobulins?

Judy Salmon: 38:24

That's one of the questions I always ask them, you know, did they breastfeed enough to get the colostrum into the child, which luckily, most of the times they have. So it's usually they'll breastfeed for you know, 3,4,6, 12 weeks sometimes, and then other than or else they'll be breastfeeding all the way through. So thank goodness, it seems like most have got at least a colostrum. So the immune activating factors that they need, are in there, then the immune system is going to then start maturing and growing through time and what are we hitting within the most vulnerable time of six 812 weeks, and they've got all this other other other toxic stuff in there as well. I mean, I remember when I was doing my big research on it years ago, I was reading vaccine journals. Now I know I was a scientist, researcher, because I could read the journal. And they would say in these journals, vaccine journals, you know, there was saying, we know a baby's immune system is immature. So we have to find we have to add irritants to the vaccine.

Daniel Baden: 39:33

adjuvants,

Judy Salmon: 39:34

adjuvant xiP that irritate us. Yeah, that irritate that irritate, so we're causing inflammation

Daniel Baden: 39:42

to make the immune system more reactive,

Judy Salmon: 39:44

when it can't be because they don't have the right things to the antibodies yet. We've got that happening as well in

Daniel Baden: 39:53

and do you look at any other sort of probiotic supplements or any other supplements at all?

Judy Salmon: 39:58

The one good thing with that with bioscreens You know, these and with Healthscope. and now with Nutripath and all the rest is you can actually see the right bacteria as well. So and sometimes we have way too high levels of bifida. So if I gave them a normal childhood probiotics would be aggravated uation as well, because too much beer for them can cause problems, fatty acid metabolism and lactic acid producing. So you can actually aggravate by thinking and doing the right thing, as well. So that's the other reason I like the test is and I can get very specific in, in the type of probiotics I get, and also back back in when I was doing Lachy, because he had such high stress. And there was a couple of brands on the market that had like, even though it was supposedly normal strict, who would aggravate those people. And I started in my adults as well, you know, taking it, I had everything but the kitchen sink in this particular profile. So and they were actually getting worse. And then when I said bring it in, let me look. And I saw that the stripping says we stopped, then they were okay. So, you know, you've even got to start balancing out at that level, because there's a really chronically ill people, and kids and adults to that, you know, and it helped me understand right across the chronic board, ADHD, chronic fatigue, rheumatoid arthritis, you name it, it's a, it's a template that I've been able to adapt accordingly right across now.

Daniel Baden: 41:22

You know, one of the things that I've noticed and I've been, you can tell me if you have as well, is that some kids have a sensitivity to a number of different supplements and medication. What do you think's going on there?

Judy Salmon: 41:33

Well, I think some people just highly sensitive, I think it's a part of who they are in a highly sensitive, I started reacting to everything. So that was one of the reasons of pushing me to alternative medicine myself, because I'm quite empathic. I'm highly sensitive. And so I think that's part of, you know, looking at everyone holistically and individually, because some people you can, you can bump over their head with herbs, five bills three times a day, where that would just wipe me out. That's the art I think of our profession, too, is seeing going something different. I do drops only a couple of time and and then others, you can hit harder

Daniel Baden: 42:12

Specifically with the autistic child, is there an increase sensitivity, do you think,

Judy Salmon: 42:18

again, I find some I can put in two or three remedies all at once. And I'll start with one only, and then slowly build them up, build them up. And then I can add in some extra things yet, and they'll definitely got children that can't do certain supplements. I have Asperger adult that could only do certain supplements. And then before we can do anything else, so you had to admit you gotta get really flexible, and adaptable. And as I send my parents, I follow the children. They always show me like, Okay, do this something else coming up. Now you got to sort out.

Daniel Baden: 42:57

So your expertise is strengthening, I guess, in being able to read the unusual set of symptoms that they present to you. They can't tell you what they're feeling. So you're getting really good at looking at the body language, and behavioral patterns. Yes. Is that something you can only learn from experience? Or is it something you can teach? I've sort of

Judy Salmon: 43:21

tried to teach some people like look in their eyes, and you can tell whether they're actually withdrawn or whether they're not even in their body. But it was seemed to work that ones I thought, I don't know how to teach this, I think, probably a gift I have, because I am an empath, you so I think, you know, I've got that extra gift. Now I understand why I haven't, I think also trained up as a homeopath because we're trying to observe and see more than just a physical symptom. We're trying to look at the emotional mental, every aspect. So I think being trained as a homeopath helped in your early days, as well, because I would watch third, you know, because we trade babies for colic and teething and they can't tell us then so we're watching. Are you watching back? Are you doing this to get your red cheeks or not? And then add helps us work out the remedies. So again, it's very using observation. And I think that's really important role and understanding that their behavior is their language,

Daniel Baden: 44:17

you also have a good look at the blood chemistry. I know there are various studies out there talking about the role of inflammation in these conditions in autism, and particularly around say, interleukin eight or tumor necrosis factor alpha, and probably a whole host of others as well. Is that something that you would consider?

Judy Salmon: 44:37

I do a certain amount of blood work but I don't get caught up at that level. Because that is actually going right down the medical model and you're only seeing one mine and and yes, I mean if they've got got problems going on and they've got dietary issues and their reaction, their immune system is off. Of course they're going to have inflammatory markers and they're going to have all that you can get lost In those sort of results, and indeed, to take that 40,000 foot view and take a step back, they're going to be inflammatory, they're going to be this, they're going to be that they're going to have these markers. I mean, parents come into me and have done lots of testing and I will have that look through. But doesn't really tell me anything more than I already know.

Daniel Baden: 45:22

Would it be considered useful if you're trying to assess if your diet is working in terms of inflammation? Or those areas? Are you going purely off symptoms there?

Judy Salmon: 45:32

If I think it's like your dietary problems, I'll get the food intolerance test done. so yeah, I do a certain blood test to start with, so I will usually send them off. It depends on the age. If they're only like two I don't do a food intolerance and especially if they're self restrictive, I already know what they've got problems with. So I just got to work on that. If they're older, I will get food intolerance testing done. So then I can actually help them put the diet the right diet to get them to that particular childhood person, because what reacts in one person does not always reaction another person, so you got to individualize there. And then I get a full blood count done. I get iron studies done. I get biochem done, I get copper, zinc, baichwal, folate, vitamin D, thyroid, and that within the stool tests and the food I can usually make up I usually know them pretty much what's going on and what I'm dealing

Daniel Baden: 46:26

with Locky, what would is typical diet look like now or after you'd had a few sessions with him and his parents. What would his breakfast lunch and dinner look like?

Judy Salmon: 46:38

Oh, okay, so Well, when he's good. He really offered gluten. But once he got off the milk, he's he's never really been a big milk person ever. And that's what we find those parents go over? Well, they'll want it again. But I don't find that. It's like they know now. It's like that. Yeah, you know, that's, that makes me feel terrible. So when he succumbs This is how we knew that he really had a gluten in problems like and when he went to school, of course, then you tend to have lowly things, especially when you know, when he got a bit older, like about girl in high school, he went quite off again. And they said I need to go see Judy. And then I was like, oh, okay, you're really and because I'm on Facebook with him. I can see what he was eating, where he was going in

Daniel Baden: 47:29

theres no hiding with social media.

Judy Salmon: 47:35

So I already had a pretty good clue So yeah, so we pulled him back off all gluten and that's where and he was dying to get high anxiety again, and coming pain and not sleeping well. And yeah, bit phobia type thing. So we got we hadn't done his daughter's for a long time. I just thought I would just double check. We got everything right. So we did that as well. But we got him straightaway on the job, again, a bit of a chore from me. So I'm the one who has to do the bad cop. So he went okay, he would do it. So that that did. That was some strip stories got so I started I retreated that and then we're going more slowly.

Daniel Baden: 48:25

So overall, do you find that moving kids with autism to anti inflammatory sort of diet more fruit vegetables, the most agreeable sort of diet? And do you recommend me to or protein of any sort as well?

Judy Salmon: 48:43

I said, Yeah, because I see some Asians so that some of them are vegetarian. So I, I actually have learned also especially with my overseas just say stick to your real diet. Because that is genetic. They've got a genetic patent, that's a giant so I go for goodness sake, keep up Augustyn and stay with you. And I must admit, families from India, those children actually eat a lot better, even though they're still gonna be quite autistic as well. And they got lots of anti inflammatories going in all the herbs and spices. Again, you're still gonna get to that real underlying cause of what's what's causing all that

Daniel Baden: 49:22

and how do you work with the parents and the family because it's a big job to make so many changes to a child affected by autism. How do you rally the parents and the brothers and sisters

Judy Salmon: 49:35

look I just say to him, you know, let's just start so do we usually start through weaning processes and slowly letting the cupboard go Barrow certain products and then slowly replacing him with either gluten free or dairy free product? So I usually have a list of alternative clouds grains, everything that usually okay, or if they're over I've done food intolerance. I know exactly. They might say okay, we've got there. Okay, this is And then not okay, this and once I see all the all the things are gone the okay lose is usually bigger than the ones that got to avoid that helps them as well. But she went on during my ADHD kit, we go through and they go, can I get that go? No, but you can have this, oh, I can I can have that. So that might start to make it easier reading labels, I just got to remind her and you know, just take your time during your first shop, as certain things go out, then then when you go next shopping, then look for alternative. So they're not doing an r&b kit. I mean, some do, they'll just go for broad. Others, it's too overwhelming and I go, it's okay, we can only do the best we can do the knee I've learned is keeping Charles dressed very in mom's dress very, equals good success. And that's really crucial. So I always say to my mom's right, your game plan out, I don't expect miracles, we're still going to get things happening because I'm addressing the other underlying issues going on. I said, I need you to be stressed very, because children pick up the stress levels, so they know that you're all stressed about it, then you won't get them off that food. And if you just do all the mums that used to be oh, well, whatever those kids would just go is easy peasy would adapt over. So it really comes down to how wavy mom is. So I really gotta calm mom's down. Give me a ring if you need a bit of this alright? Or not all right, or, you know, send me a text went over and something and I'll tell you yea or nay. So you've got to be prepared as a practitioner, that for those first, good three months, you go put a bit of extra effort to help them get through because once they get through it, they're often going, then you can sit back, okay. And it's easy for all of us. It's hard work, I have to admit, I mean, I've got it down to good art now, because of your practice that I remember in those Oh, yeas, it was hard work.

Daniel Baden: 51:52

But I guess nothing motivates parents and siblings as seeing results.

Judy Salmon: 51:56

Exactly. Yeah. And then when they start to see everything heading in the right direction, where everything's been going wrong for so long. But then again, I've had also some families or not so much now, but in the early days, and they wouldn't turn up the console, and they got tortured, even though the child was showing signs are getting better. I don't find that as much. Or maybe I'll just attract families that are really ready to do the big work now.

Daniel Baden: 52:23

Yeah, yeah, I've seen that myself, you saw Lachy when he was three went through some changes, at what point? You know, how was he at five and seven and 10 Just off the top of your head?

Judy Salmon: 52:35

Well, when we started all the vaccines, and then we had some huge, huge changes, you know, then he

Daniel Baden: 52:41

so when you say the vaccine; the vaccine detox, realized,

Judy Salmon: 52:46

reversals, undo damage that was so so that would have been about nine months, 9-10 months after I first started treating him so it was picked up and was playing and all of the things then we started with the MMR and then we went in to really be playing imaginary games lot to pretend playing seen whole songs and happy to go to therapy was doing really well at therapists loved him hit out every now and then. But it was more frustration, awareness, language expressions, social skills improved, to have a little bit of sensory to go through, that was all improving. And then you went into more ritualistic behavior. And then I went on to hair, a hair analysis. So I did even a little bit backwards to what I do. Now that was part of my learning. You know, that is you do middles first and then go into vaccines. So that did because it had such a change it you know, we were seeing this incredible flow happening. And then all of a sudden the chain is like we hit a brick wall and something else. Okay, so now it's very ritualistic, which is bought usually mentally, you know, metals can be quite like that. So and so we did a hair analysis on that. So we had to know Him IN YOU MUST income and it was really, really high. And it's been I started in on detoxing. Bismuth heavy metal. So then that I actually now with the herbs in can you hurt. So just do leaf and root, protect the kidneys and the liver because we're detoxing heavy metals down in the body. And then I just get that once a week now you should do the metals at a dose of 200. C

Daniel Baden: 54:26

casting forward in years. Lachy he's now 16 I think. Yep. How's the last few years of his life being here as a teenager?

Judy Salmon: 54:36

Oh, well. I mean, every now and then as a teen especially with the last couple years anxiety, but that's more not what was causing all this stuff before. It's just a teenager in this crazy world that we're in at the moment and all that unknowns and I think the biggest issue that we've had to talk about is all this gender stuff. going on with them really confusing the kids. And I said you may you know, it's hung up in a teenager years ago without adding all this to the picture as well. So if you talk him through all that, he's very healthy plays cricket sport, loves it

Daniel Baden: 55:18

good social network?

Judy Salmon: 55:21

He's got all his friends that he's had since primary school Plus, you've now got a different high school. So some of these primates have gone off to other high schools. So he went into a brand new high school on his own, with no backup there. So you handled it really well.

Daniel Baden: 55:37

Amazing. For all intents and purposes, he is in inverted commas. Normal.

Judy Salmon: 55:43

Yeah. You would never ever, ever know, at all.

Daniel Baden: 55:50

And finally, is it ever too late to treat autism? If you will see all this patient you've seen?

Judy Salmon: 55:56

I've done into the 20s. And I've just got a new one at the moment. And you I'm just waiting for his results. He's 26. Is it ever too late now? It's not too late at all. The Nether fallacy that's still out there and has been for us is that you got to have done by five or four or something, or else it's too late. No, no, I do kids, you know, 567 1112 13, whatever age they come in, and like you will get slower and more work to do because of debin shut down that longer period of time. But they're all but you can do you know so much. They're healthy and happy. Living life, you know, hadn't even been able to really do.

Daniel Baden: 56:33

You know, the one thing I've known as a naturopath, myself is and I have enormous respect for is the human body and its ability to bounce back at any stage. It is constantly finding ways to improve and with a bit of help, it's just amazing.

Judy Salmon: 56:51

Yes, that's right. And there is so much to do. And I mean, I've used these templates, you know, I worked with kids with Down syndrome of genetic conditions or do ADHD, sensory auditory processing all there is if you just go find those underlying issues and renew them. Amazing thing.

Daniel Baden: 57:13

You kept me smiling the whole interview because I just love to see the improvement that Locky had, it was just gorgeous. Thank you, Judy, how do people get in touch

Judy Salmon: 57:22

Judth.salmon@bigpond.com with you?

Daniel Baden: 57:24

Judith.salmon@bigpond.com Right. Wonderful. Well, you are amazing. Thank you. And thank you for

Judy Salmon: 57:37

I love giving hope to people and also getting the truth out there. There's so much you can do.

Daniel Baden: 57:43

Yeah, absolutely. There is and what a lovely story. So thank you so much. And hope to speak to you again.

Judy Salmon: 57:50

Okay,