Fix your Fatigue

Fatigue and exhaustion are a modern curse. In fact they represent main reason people visit their health care professionals. Without the proper care and support the symptoms escalate and manifest in different ways, both mentally and physically. These symptoms can not be treated by a tablet nor is there a special 'fatigue' test ( well, maybe iron levels). To properly manage fatigue and exhaustion requires an evaluation of your lifestyle, diet and environmental factors. With a deeper understanding of "you" a holistic health care provider can help you rediscover your energetic self. In this episode I interview the very lovely Karina Antram who has been through the journey and wrote a book "Fix Your Fatigue" to help others.

Transcript

Daniel Baden: 0:16

Tonight, well, actually today in Karina's world, but tonight in my world, we'll be talking to Karina Antram. Karina is a nutritionist, a Registered nutritionist and an executive coach. She's written a book recently called Fix your fatigue, which we'll talk about a bit later. However, like many practitioners, Karina arrived at this point by going through a significant episode of

Karina Antram: 1:14

Thank you very much for having me, Daniel.

Daniel Baden: 1:16

Karinana, what is the difference between fatigue and tiredness? Because those terms are interchangeable. And they are certainly the number one reason that people come to see nutritionists naturopaths GPS, Everyone's tired or everyone's fatigued. But is there a difference?

Karina Antram: 1:36

I think that absolutely is. In my experience, I think that tiredness is really when we sort of don't get enough asleep, perhaps we don't feel refreshed after a good night's sleep. And tiredness comes in sort of ebbs and flows. You know, I think a lot of people are very aware of a sort of off new dip, it's a three o'clock where you feel a little bit more fatigued. But actually

Daniel Baden: 2:56

I've often thought and I've had this conversation with my wife that women actually have a tough agenda because not only are they expected to work , and have children and be there for the family and school and everything, there does seem to be some disparity. And statistically, women do report fatigue more than men. Do you think that's the case?

Karina Antram: 3:20

That's absolutely right. According to the latest scientific research, women are three times more likely to burn out than men. And I think it's absolutely as you described annual there, it's the multiple responsibilities and also the pressure at the moment, I think on sort of working parents trying to juggle both, you know, being a parent, and also, you know, running businesses,

Daniel Baden: 4:27

That's your fault for writing a book on the subject.

Unknown: 4:30

I know but that's a good that's a good thing though, because actually, I want to try and help as many people as possible and empower people really to ultimately take control of their own health. And especially women, I think a lot of women put off investigating, you know, they think oh, actually being tired as you know, it's fine to be a little bit tired. It's normal. And actually,

Daniel Baden: 5:36

Oh, look, I would agree with that. I've worked as a naturopath both in the UK and Australia. And I would definitely agree that there's a lot more acceptance here in Australia. Yeah, yes. And locally, we talked about just then women having a lot more pressure on them. Do you think there's also an influence from hormonal activity? Adding to that pressure?

Karina Antram: 6:00

Absolutely. But I think the thing about tiredness is that not only is it bespoke to each individual, but also there's never normally one reason as to why you're tired. I think if I think about my own journey, yes, there was absolutely hormonal dysregulation, for sure. I think also, I suffered from a slightly underactive thyroid, but actually, it was also things like

Daniel Baden: 7:10

Yeah, I completely agree with you. However, a lot of patients from my experience would suggest that they can remember or isolate one virus or one condition or one time in their life, where things may not have got better since. And I think, in your case for memory. In your book, you may have thought that your glandular fever when you're 18 years old. And do you still feel that

Karina Antram: 7:38

That was definitely a trigger event for me. So back when I was 18, I fell ill with glandular fever, and I ended up having four months of school so not only did I get glandular fever, and I was given antibiotics for it, but I got kidney infection, laryngitis tonsillitis quite severely and chickenpox all in one go. So I had four months off. And after that, I think with the sort of,

Daniel Baden: 8:57

And when you sell your soul to a big corporate or organization, I guess you also end up working extraordinarily long hours, to maybe suffer sleep deprivation, your diet may be affected or impacted adversely. I used to work in London 40 years ago, actually. And I remember the drinking culture that was around in those days, and I'm sure that it hasn't completely gone. So I guess

Karina Antram: 9:33

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's why as I said to you before, I think the problem in this country is we still very much used a sort of conventional medicine model where you go to your doctor, you see him for sort of or her him or her for sort of five minutes. And you know, you get a diagnosis pretty quickly based on you know, quick debrief of your symptoms, and normally you get modifications on health, we're already seeing that we've got a huge obesity crisis. You know, cardiovascular disease is an all time high, you know, we really do need to do something and make some changes, it's just a very difficult problem to try and solve. But I'd like to think is people like me, hopefully in a naturopathic community are trying to do our tiny bit to really strongly try and

Daniel Baden: 11:36

Part of the issues from if you if you're looking for medical attention for a chronic fatigue sort of problem is that there is not one specific test. It's not like looking at cholesterol or looking for one particular virus or one particular enzyme. Because as you've alluded to, these things are extraordinarily complicated. And you need to run a lot of tests. So you've got to step back

Karina Antram: 12:14

That's right. Yes. As I was an HR leader and working for corporations in management, consulting and private equity in HR, which is a very, very stressful job in stressful environments. That's absolutely right.

Daniel Baden: 12:24

Yeah. So what were your early symptoms? How, at what point did you start to think something is not right?

Karina Antram: 12:30

So is it this particular management consultancy where I was going for promotion, and I was working particularly long hours. And all it started with was, and this is a sign for everyone I think we should all take note of is just interrupted sleep. And I didn't think that was not, you know, abnormal, but what I did suddenly start to think was actually my thoughts and my mind, I sort of rock bottom moment, and I had to make some changes. And so from that point onwards, slowly but surely, I started to make changes, but it was it took me years because I had no clue where to go for help, how to how to how to help myself. And it was only until I started educating myself and join join my nutrition course I started to think Aha, gosh, that's that's what's going on right now.

Daniel Baden: 14:46

A relationship between burnout and fatigue.

Karina Antram: 14:49

I think the thing about fatigue is it you know, chronic fatigue syndrome is typically diagnosed after six months with six months of feeling exhausted all day every day. I think but an outage happens when you you almost physically mentally emotionally shut down. And you get a number of different symptoms of burnout, it can be, you know, poor concentration and focus, you know, sore to take note, I get things like extreme jaw pain, so TMJ, my jaw, and that's when I know I'm grinding in my sleep, I my sleep has been compromised. And I'm slightly stressed. And I need to take action and adopt some stress management techniques. So with all the micro signs that I get, I then use the right tool to apply to make sure that I don't hit that point again. And I think it's the most

Daniel Baden: 17:08

We have to learn to trust ourselves. You're quite right. When you are in a state of chronic fatigue, or you're have long term burnout. I guess it also makes you more vulnerable to other diseases or other infections. Did you find yourself picking up colds and flus

Unknown: 17:26

right. We know when you're in a stressed out state, of course, it completely suppresses the immune system. And I also had a very dysbiotic gut microbiome, probably due to the sheer amount of antibiotics I took for various different things over the years. And I probably had about, I would say, between 20 and 30 courses of antibiotics throughout my life throughout my childhood, for

Daniel Baden: 19:15

when you're feeling exhausted or burnt out. And as you alluded to earlier, you also develop mental health type issues, and anxiety or depression, or loss of cognitive function are all commonly known and associated with those exhaustive conditions. But there is significant stigma around those mental health conditions. And people can be caught in a trap of not feeling well but also

Karina Antram: 19:50

Gosh, well, being very honest with you. I remember when I was in 2014, when I was first diagnosed with burnout and chronic fatigue syndrome. I was given CBT which is obviously called Cognitive Behavioral Therapy, which actually, in hindsight, I didn't find particularly useful. But I was very embarrassed, I didn't tell anybody, because I thought at the time, oh, it's a form of if you've gone through a period of grief or bereavement, obviously, bereavement counts be more suitable. But you've got to make sure that you seek the right support. I think for me, truthfully, I just managed it by myself for a very long period of time. I was lucky, though, that I had the support of my college at the time, were surrounded by practitioners. So I felt I was getting the right support

Daniel Baden: 21:57

Yeah, but for a lot of people, they're stuck in a world where they're not feeling energy, they don't have energy, they have secondary or perhaps primary mental health issues associated with that. And they've got a medical profession that doesn't have the time or the understanding to understand their problem particularly well. So what do those people do? What did you do? I mean, as a

Unknown: 22:31

Well you are you absolutely also hitting the nail on the head in terms of where do you go? Where was the support? Because I didn't know where to go? Or what support to have at all. And I think what's interesting at the time, as I said, I told Absolutely, no, because I was so embarrassed. And actually, I did not I obviously went to the doctors, and that was my first port of call. showing the Borrelia within your system, we can't be sure because actually, with Lyme disease, you know, a lot of the time you get false, you know, false positive tests, but actually we think it is we'll just give you some antibiotics and be on your way. So obviously, I ended up taking these antibiotics. And again, it was just a cycle of antibiotics or medication. And I thought this, this, this

Daniel Baden: 25:12

Why? Why nutritional naturopathic medicine not acupuncture or some other therapy?

Karina Antram: 25:19

That's a really, really good question Daniel, the the, I think the answer to that is I've always been a huge, hugely into food, like, I love my food, I'm all about balance and trying lots of different foods. So that, for me was my port of call, because that is my absolute passion in life. And actually, I first started nutrition, interestingly, in 2012. And I did Biomedicine for

Daniel Baden: 26:58

So that was that your first significant change in mindset?

Karina Antram: 27:02

It was absolutely yes, it was let's not focus on having a label, let's not focus on making sure that I know what I've got, let's start looking at myself holistically thinking about all the different triggering events and things that might be going on, and applying some really nice nutrition or naturopathic tools to myself.

Daniel Baden: 27:19

In your book, you you go on to describe the five steps to regaining your energy, which is a nice succinct way of putting it. And I like that because it makes it allows people to break it down into things that they can do themselves. Number one is fuel your body. What does that mean?

Karina Antram: 27:37

Well, I think it's ultimately about increasing nutrient density. I didn't know years ago, the difference between a nutrient dense food and food that wasn't nutrient dense, and that might sound really silly and perhaps ignorant of me. But for me, I just ate what I wanted to eat and what I fancied. And now every time I build, I build, make sure I build a balanced plate for three our guts are having the right foods, your immune systems so that they can work as optimally as they can. And also, you know, our brains cognitively because we use so much energy during the day for our brain 20% of the energy we have is from our brains, you know, we are fueling our brains with the with the right nutrients as well.

Daniel Baden: 29:40

And so you're giving people food and nutrient dense food, and what about supplements? Do you prescribe them? Do you think people need them? Different people, I guess, have different supplementary needs. How do you determine what people need?

Karina Antram: 29:56

Yes. So again, that's a really good question. So my view on supplements is, they have helped me hugely. However, we also have to be cultural conscious when we see clients that, you know, I always go for food first approach first and see the difference that can make to people's lives. Because sometimes just simple dietary changes can have a huge impact herbs as well. However, the

Daniel Baden: 30:58

would be the, say, the top two or three supplements you would find on vitamins or minerals, I should say that you would find most useful to most fatigued patients most of the time?

Karina Antram: 31:10

That's a really good question. And, you know, it's that, for me is quite a difficult question to answer, because that's basically saying that, I think that everybody has the same level of fatigue, and the same DNA and the same issues across the board, which is the case. And actually, what we do in clinic is we say, right, we're gonna look back at your full case history and adopt a

Daniel Baden: 32:42

one. And when it comes to one of your points in regard in regaining energy is support the gut we alluded to earlier. And obviously, when you eat better your gut is supported. But I imagine that you're also prescribing probiotic type supplements or perhaps prebiotics of supplements. How do you choose which one is right for the right person? Because that is a world of intrigue?

Karina Antram: 33:09

You know, I think I think the thing about at the moment probiotics is, of course, you know, the scientific research is still very much in its infancy around the gut microbiome full stop. And actually, we know from a science that, you know, if you can try if you have a particular symptom, say, if I talk about irritable bowel syndrome, because that's obviously what I've suffered We need to also take into consideration clients budgets

Daniel Baden: 34:54

to learn and with probiotics. I think the research is just absolutely everywhere. And I don't think You know, we don't have the giant databases available to us to understand which probiotics work for which people there are companies trying to establish those databases at the moment. But we're some time off. And one of the issues is most of the studies and probiotics come from

Karina Antram: 35:36

And I think what would be lovely is if I could get my own bespoke probiotic made up to nourish my own my gut microbiome, I'd love to see that as the future.

Daniel Baden: 35:46

Yeah, I think that will be the future to be honest.

Unknown: 35:48

I do.

Daniel Baden: 35:52

one of the points you raise in your book is supercharging, your sleep. telling people to sleep is easy. actually achieving it is quite difficult for a lot of people. Do you have any hot tips? How did what worked for you as a patient yourself? or what have you found successful for other patients?

Karina Antram: 36:15

Yes, for me, the most important thing is developing really good sleep hygiene habits. And I found things even basics, just making sure every evening I have a bath filled with two big cups of magnesium flakes. It sounds really basic, but magnesium is a sleeping juicer. And I found it brilliant for helping me sleep alongside things like a valerian or a lemon balm, tea, or really

Daniel Baden: 38:10

right? Important. But it sounds like you're offering people tools to empower themselves as well.

Karina Antram: 38:16

In all sorts, applying the right tools that work for you, you might try something, it doesn't work for you. But you might try something else, it's absolutely game changing. We're all completely different. And it's just making sure that you adhere to your own chronotype, you make sure that you are in line with that as much as you can. And you you know, you apply some tools every

Daniel Baden: 38:55

see, one of your steps is harness the power of your brain. And I I kind of understand what that means. But I kind of don't understand what you're on about there. Could you elaborate?

Karina Antram: 39:06

So for me, I think one of the biggest changes I made was actually to my mindset. And so within this chapter, what we talk about is how you can retain your brain energy and reduce your cognitive fatigue. Because particularly for women at the moment, they are multitasking so much that actually it's it's really draining their brain energy. And that's what I'm finding with my clients that was a great little tip. For me, there's lots of other

Daniel Baden: 41:03

great like that one, we mentioned this word before mitochondria, and the mitochondria, the little energy production units in each cell. Very, very important. And everything I'm reading, and when I'm giving lectures myself, everything seems to come up as mitochondrial dysfunction. It's an area that's just becoming more and more understood. And across just about every chronic condition

Karina Antram: 41:46

Yes, absolutely. So when you are looking at your mitochondria, obviously, our mitochondria reside in our cells, we very much need to consider our cellular energy. And one of the things that can impact our cellular energy are things like toxins and chemicals. So actually to look at the environment that we're bathing our mitochondria in. So I think one thing that if you're listening food, it's about actually eating food for our cellular energy and our biochemistry to make sure that our body's functioning in the best way that it can.

Daniel Baden: 43:40

I suspect over the next few years, anyone that has any understanding any practitioner that has any understanding of the mitochondria will get a lot busier, because one of the biggest insults on the mitochondria are also viruses. And long, long COVID has been very much associated with mitochondrial dysfunction. And fatigue is the primary symptom of long COVID. So you're completely

Karina Antram: 44:35

I would say that being tired all the time is not normal. And don't ignore the signs that your body is giving you. It's now time to take action. And I hope the book allows people to start taking action in a really easy way, even when you are exhausted.

Daniel Baden: 44:55

Okay, and how do people get the book? So it's available

Karina Antram: 44:59

on Amazon And also that is available actually in Australian bookstores as well. I can get specific lists actually, if you need at the moment, but it launched in Australia on the 23rd of March. So it's definitely available. Which I'm, oh, I'm hugely excited about it. You know, for me, Australia is a country absolutely wants to sell my book. And because there's so many people at the

Daniel Baden: 45:43

Wonderful. Well, look, this has been a really enjoyable conversation. As I said, it is the number one reason people come to visit, naturopath, nutritionist herbalists, and so it's just so important. And after this whole COVID business, it's just become so much more important still. Thank you so much. I'm grateful that you wrote the book. I'm grateful you've had some time to spend

Karina Antram: 46:10

Brilliant. Thank you so much. And I've really enjoyed to chat. Thank you.

Daniel Baden: 46:14

Okay, take care. Bye. Bye.