Neuroblastoma:Frankie's story

Frankie was just 3 years old when he was diagnosed with a Neuroblastoma. He had secondaries throughout his tiny body. Contrary to medical advice his mum Amanda trusted her instinct and also immediately engaged her Naturopath. When standard oncology treatment was combined with holistic medicine young Frankie was the winner.

Transcript

Amanda: 0:16

Today I'll be talking to Genevieve Mlotkowski and to her client, Amanda, who is the mother of young Frankie. Welcome, guys. How are you? Great, thanks. When Frankie was very little, he was diagnosed with stage four neuroblastoma. So for those of you that don't know what a Neuroblastoma is, it's a type of cancer that grows in the cells of the body's nerves, which are called neuro blasts. And 90% of all neuroblastoma diagnoses happen in children under five often affects their adrenal glands, or it can affect other side spinal cord, neck, chest, abdomen, pelvis. Amanda, how did you know that something was going on with Frankie. Well, he hadn't been well for probably, I'd say maybe three months. But it was things that like that could be written off as so many other things. He was complaining of neck pain. So we took him to the physio and she said, do these exercises and change his pillow. And we'd been away camping on a holiday up in the air bar in November. So it was quite hot, but he just been very lethargic hadn't been well. And we just thought, you know, maybe you need an ice block because you've been running around too much. He was complaining of abdominal pains, but we were trying to potty train him because he was going to preschool next year. So he was just about to turn three in the November and was diagnosed in January of 2019. So just things that didn't really stand out. But he just hadn't been well, looking back. Now, obviously, we, you know, figured out what it was. But at the time, we just, he just hadn't been well how did you eventually get to the diagnosis?

Unknown: 1:55

So it was actually completely accidental. We had taken him for abdominal X ray. We thought he may have swallowed a coin in the night or a car tire or something. And we just thought looking at me well rushed you up to the hospital, we said we think you may have swallowed something. They did a urine test. They did an x ray and actually found the mass from the xray

Amanda: 2:18

And where was the mass? It was growing from his adrenal gland. It was 11 centimeters big, which is pretty big in a tiny three year olds body.

Daniel Baden: 2:27

Most of them do start in the adrenal glands. Yeah, yeah. It's a daunting thought to have your child diagnosed with any serious condition. How did you first respond to that? How did you cope?

Amanda: 2:38

I mean, I don't know necessarily. If I remember so much about those very, very early days, I have a few memories. But a family member will say remember this, remember this? And I'll be like, I have no idea. So I think I just was in survival mode fight or flight. We were really shocked. You know, you know about pediatric cancers, but you never ever think it's going to be your kid. Right. And did he have any secondaries or was it just in

Unknown: 3:03

So he had soft tissue tumour, he did have one in his the adrenal gland. neck, which would explain the neck pain. He had one encasing the optic nerve and his right eye. So he actually is now blind in his right eye as a direct result of the tumor being suffocating the nerve. He had a couple of soft tissue tumors in the space between his skull and his brain, so not actually on the skull or the brain. And then he had a couple of lumps, I think, maybe around the spinal area, but the main solid tissue one was the big one in the adrenal gland. Oh, and sorry, it was in his bones as well.

Amanda: 3:42

So he had a fair cancer load going around his body.

Unknown: 3:46

It was massive. It was absolutely massive. It was to the point where the doctors had said, if we don't do treatment, ASAP, he'll be gone within six weeks.

Amanda: 3:56

Oh, geez, what I thing to hear. Panic. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, in the context of all of that, and the part that kind of amazes me very soon after you got the diagnosis, and I think it was next day. Yeah. you went to see Genevieve. Now, choosing holistic medicine, together with medicine is, you know, especially in such a short period of time is a big decision. How did you come to that decision so quickly?

Unknown: 4:23

So I had actually prior to having Frankie I was actually undergoing a naturopathic degree. I was about two years in. So I was in that world. I was already we were taking supplements, we would very rarely go to the doctor. My kids hadn't had antibiotics like I was in that world. If I had something wrong, I went to the health food store to talk to them. So to me, it was an immediate no brainer. What are we getting? Who are we seeing? What are we doing? We started Googling, we started joining Facebook groups like we just dove straight in,

Amanda: 4:56

and this is something you discussed with the oncologist or the pediatrician or the doctor, did you just do it... in our very first meeting where we after the oncology team had had the scans and had formalized their diagnosis, and basically told us the news, I had actually said to them, would you guys be open to doing complementary treatments alongside the basic, you know, chemo protocol, and I was immediately shut down, we did not recommend that it's dangerous. It can it can, you know, injure your son, it can conflict with medications, like it was a flat out No, very firm. No, and that book was shot. So I was, I was like, okay, got the vibe, get it? And did it anyway, I wasn't gonna take their answer of don't do it. I was like, Well, to me. It's madness. If I don't you know what I mean, like, I know, which made me sense. Well, I understand that and given your background, I understand it. But I still think you're incredibly brave. Given all the... Yeah, there was a lot of pressure. Yeah, a lot of pressure and a lot of the parents that I'd spoken to, because obviously, we spent a lot of time on the ward there. And I'd said, Hey, guys, like, do any of you, you know, like, Would you be willing to try something different? I've got this naturopath and the parents. Basically 99% of the parents all said, No, we've been told not to, we're gonna follow the oncologist advice. And I respected that. Because that's everyone's on their own journey. To me, I was like, No way. I'm throwing everything at it. Genevieve, from many years of talking to you that you've got some experience with supporting patients with cancer. And I know some of the amazing outcomes you've had over that time. Have you supported many children?

Genevieve Mlotkowski: 6:37

So just three, and the really interesting thing, or three or four actually probably four? Well, I guess some of them are older, some of them, it seems to be, they're very common in the three to five to eight years of age. And then 18 is kind of so I guess they're not technically a child, if they're 18. But yeah, there was one other child with the same type of cancer, who is also now cancer free. So I mean, I always think, like I said to her right at the beginning, great cancer for your child to have, because we've had really good outcomes with this. And you know, so I mean, there are definitely better cancers to have. If you've had a good outcome with a child or an adult who's had a cancer where they're now cancer free. That's always a great story to tell the

Amanda: 7:24

a child like Frankie, who comes in three years old, and fairly advanced cancer, very large, primary, secondary is everywhere. Hi, cancer load. How do you start? What do you think about what you're processing? You know, what's your thinking process around that?

Genevieve Mlotkowski: 7:43

I guess my initial thought is, like, with kids, they hit them really hard. Like with Frankie, the doses, the like aggression, the way they go about is so different to adults. And I do a lot of older adults with cancer as well. So sometimes I think the oncologists are a bit crazy about that, because they're like, well, they're older anyway, so we can kind of just take our time. Obviously, cancers in kids grow very aggressively, as well as probably why they go in so aggressively. So we're looking at side effects with looking at what are the major side effects of chemo and I guess something that is huge. And a reason why a lot of patients have to stop chemo is because the white cell count the neutropenia. So then they're prone to infection, then they need to be in isolation. And so essentially, we want to keep the white cells within a normal range, and keep those ratios nice and healthy. So then he could continue going from round to round of chemo and all the other types of treatment that he did after chemo without a break or too much of a break. So I guess then we could get on top of the cancer as soon as possible. And yeah, appetite preventing him from losing weight, liver function, Amanda can probably tell the liver story because, I mean, that was very exciting because a lot of patients will they will stop their cancer treatment or they will kind of give up I guess on the patient to some degree, when they get certain liver issues. And Amanda was amazing, like the best mom in the world. She actually read every side effect of every Frankie was prescribed. We saw the liver issues, like the symptoms starting to develop and told the nurses immediately. So then, I guess I knew what to treat based on her research of his particular drugs. So yeah.

Amanda: 9:47

Okay. And they also test liver enzymes regularly. Are you just going on on symptoms? No. So every day he would have bloods drawn at the hospital and basically every day they would be monitoring I would say he's something something is higher is something something is low. So we were getting regular daily updates of what his bloods were doing. So he could keep an eye on all of that. But it was more of a physical symptom. So he had a side effect from his double stem cell transplant, it was a VR de vino occlusive disease where basically, it was one day where his urinary output was really low. And this was sort of the thing that triggered my first thing, because it was one of the things that I'd read was urinary output. So I was like, he hasn't done many ways today. And then over, I think the course of maybe the next two or three days, he started to get the abdominal bloating and the swelling. And they said, Okay, we can see his liver enzymes are, you know, going up, blah, blah, blah. So then I'd seen that it's a drug called Defibrotide. If it can be administered really early, it has very good outcomes. So he was on Defibrotide. Really early, I think, like within a day or two of the abdominal kind of like, he went a funny color, you know, like, we deliver problems, you go funny colors. So it was from a little bit of the Bloods, but also just obviously noticing him as well. He wasn't, you know, putting out as much weight and he was going a funny color. Yeah. I think it's just so important. And you are amazing, Amanda, because it's so important. And you reminded me of something that we should be telling everyone with every serious disease is to have a really active and interest in your family members conditions, sometimes hard when it's yourself, because if you're not feeling well, and you can't research properly, yeah, but if anyone's got a serious condition and your family out there, people, it's so important that someone takes an active interest in side effects, the drugs, the disease process itself. And I think because you become almost the manager of that person, you remind all the doctors, you remind all the nurses, you remind all the naturopaths and you just get better outcomes if someone's taking, you know, that active control. So well done on that. Genevieve, you are able to understand the side effects from the drugs. And a lot of the side effects seem to have an impact on the liver. What do you do about supporting liver?

Genevieve Mlotkowski: 12:12

Yeah, so I mean, it was interesting, when Amanda mentioned about the oncologist having a fear of naturopathic, I think, certain naturopath to do specialized levels of training in cancer. So we know what is safe and what isn't safe to give in conjunction with whatever mainstream treatment they're doing. And I mean, I'm certainly at some stage or another we had him on NAC to support his liver function. Amanda and her husband and family were doing lots of phenomenal juicing, brain juices, beetroot things that were supporting liver function in a food way. And men certainly were able to get on to things before they became a great issue. So I guess it was trading side effects and issues on at the first sign and Amanda would let me know if there was something new that happened immediately. Rather than waiting for the next consult, she would just email me or text me if something new happened or call me. And so we were able to get on to things prior to them becoming a greater issue than what they could potentially have been. And then Frankie had less side effects and was able to get through it more smoothly. So

Amanda: 13:29

we and we didn't even actually you know how you said sometimes people have to have gaps between their treatment. So the doctor said to us Look, you're likely to have to have a week of chemo or do this but Frankie absolutely smashed through we did not have to have a gap for any treatment. We did back to back chemo and I mean, the oncologist was shocked, though, like he's that he's the wellness to sick kid on the oncology ward. You know what I mean? Like we didn't have he never dropped too low to get his chemo. He was well enough to start a stem cell he he didn't even get a nose tube or nasal gastric tube. They said to us on day one, he's gonna have to have a nasal gastric tube once and then we got through the chemo and he hadn't lost that 10% of his weight. Like they kept saying when you hit it when you hit it, that's it. That's it. Anyway, we got all the way through till the end and it pretty much they said you cannot have immunotherapy if you don't have a nose tube. So we kind of were forced into it because he was so well during treatment. He kept his appetite. He was you know, being nourished. He was he was being fair. And I think that sort of shocked him as well that we didn't we weren't going down the same route that kids usually like don't get me wrong, he was very sick. He was not a well kid, but not to the point where it impeded his treatment. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. You know, weight loss is a very common feature chemo. You know, it's hard enough in adults, but how do you get a child to eat? I mean, I guess Genevieve worked a diet with you, but you had to implement it. So between you. What were the key The important facts in creating that sort of diet and getting him to be well nourished? Well, I'll just start quickly. We've always been a really healthy eating family, we've always had a very diverse diet my kids have always eaten well. So I think the thing is, is that because he was such a well kid to start with, we we were getting knocked down from a high tea or as we saw a lot of other kids on the ward who were fussy eaters, and their parents couldn't get them to eat things. I mean, don't get me wrong, his absolute favorite food to the whole of his treatment was hashbrowns, and fish and chips. So we were just getting that a name and washing it down with an apple juice and, you know, have some grapes or some watermelon in the afternoon, I think, because he kept his appetite up so well. And I don't really know if I'm allowed to say this, but we actually had him on cannabis oils very early on in his treatment journey. So that also helped with the nausea, the lack of appetite, those things that go alongside with the chemotherapy. So I think that played a huge role of why he stayed so well during those first really rough days of chemo. And from a dietary point of view, Genevieve was there, did you have a plan?

Genevieve Mlotkowski: 16:14

They were just phenomenal. So I usually with my cancer patients send out a list of all the fruit and veg that have specific actives for cancer. And I think Amanda was constantly juicing smoothies. And I mean, the most ridiculous thing is that some of the staff would actually joke and say, Oh Ha, ha, ha, you're giving him the green juice as if it's not going to do anything but beetroot green juices, the have specific enzymes and actives for cancer are just phenomenal. Yeah. So they were big into doing that for him. And then supplement wise we had him on zinc right through and then I mean, if we're looking at the Australian population, 80% of Australians are zinc deficient. You know, if you have a child that is does not have cancer, but he's a fussy eater, perhaps is underweight, or, you know, looks a bit on the ln side compared to other family members doesn't look as robust and healthy as they could. They're probably zinc deficient. And zinc is something that certainly, you know, most people can benefit from, in some way, shape or form. But certainly that would have been a big factor with keeping his weight up is keeping him on that zinc right through.

Amanda: 17:31

Agree, zinc is so important for at all any immune condition, but particularly in cancer. You know, one of the most important things, of course, is the outcome. And this is the exciting part. I'm tempted to do a drum roll, but I don't know how to do it. So I won't. But you were told that Frankie would be on treatment for three years, I believe, Amanda? Roughly two years. Yeah. Two years. Okay. And what happened? Well, he was done in 18 months, or less actually. We started in January of 2019. And he received his last immunotherapy treatment in April of 2020. Yeah, wow. Just just walk me through that. What happened? You go in to the hospital, pediatric oncologist, presumably, yeah, yeah, what happened and then you basically get your diagnosis. And then from that, so in Australia, they follow the COC protocol for pediatric cancer, which is pretty much the same for everything. A real intensive 80 days of chemo, closely followed by I think they did the chemotherapy first to shrink his tumor. So he got his main tumor from 11 centimeters down to six. So once he finished chemotherapy, it was surgery to remove the right adrenal gland. And we were really lucky the tumor wasn't growing in on anything through anything, a lot of oncology, a lot of the neuroblastoma kids it's wrapped around the arterial veins or the heart or the lungs. We were really, really lucky that his was encased and then a soft tissue tumors behind his eyes and his head had also shrunk basically down to nothing. But he didn't regain vision back in his eye, I'd say it was probably just, you know, cut off from circulation for a little too long. So after surgery, I think he had surgery maybe in April. And then after that, we started the stem cell transplant. So we had to travel down to Sydney to harvest his healthy stem cells, where they filter out everything from the blood, put the stem cells on ice, but then after he got two really big, very toxic load doses of chemo in the stem cell transplant. The first one was I can't remember which way he had them. But there was one particular type of chemo where he had to have a bath every six hours I think on the dot like it like every six hours day or night. Had to get washed in this specific wash too. And then In the second lot of stem cell chemo that they did, they said, Oh, you know, he's probably not going to be well enough. Well, but he was. So we got to do the second lot of the stem cell. And that's when I think so he had, let's go back and fold. But he actually got two side effects from the stem cell. The first one was the vino occlusive disease. And a second one was a pulmonary hemorrhage, which very, very early on, we'd spoken to a lung lung specialist, and he'd said, you know, be careful of this particular side effect, blah, blah, blah. Anyway, the oncologist said, Oh, it'll be fine. You know, he won't get up either. Anyway, he did. And then so that was a few weeks in ICU, and then a couple of weeks still back down on the ward, but finished that. And then I think in September, October, we started radiation down at the Children's Hospital at Randwick. And that was, I think, every day for two weeks or something maybe on his abdomen where the original tumor was they sort of shoot that whole area there. And then after that, we started immunotherapy. So that was every month for I think, maybe six months, maybe yeah, that would have taken us through to April. So had to be up in ICU for that specialty administered. And then after immunotherapy, we start vitamin A therapy. So he took a vitamin A capsule, which pretty much just, I think it kills off any lost cancer that's left or stops its growth or something like that. And then that was it. He was done clear by I think I think he was clear. I think the only little bit of cancer that he had left when he started immunotherapy was the bones. But apparently the bones are the trickiest part to get the cancer, the very last of it out. And then yeah, I got the news in April of 2020, that there was no evidence of disease anywhere, which was amazing. Amazing. And what was the feedback from the doctors? Were they surprised? I mean, they just had I mean, I think it's a happy outcome when they can finish off a case didn't say it was good, but I think the thing I just wanted to say to them, I want to be like, by the way, I've been doing this all along, but I kind of just thought like you guys take it thank the chemo dude, all that and I'll just silently step here being like, do we know which one got rid of a cancer? No, do I care? No. The fact of the matter is, it's gone. Yeah. Genevieve, when you're working with a patient with cancer? Do you generally have ongoing communication with the oncologist? Or do you just get shut down as well?

Genevieve Mlotkowski: 22:37

Um, I mean, look, if if the patients kind of a shame because in the medical journals, there are many want me to send a list of all their supplements and some info to the oncologist, I'm happy to do that. But that's very rare that we do that. Because honestly, most people do not tell their oncologist, anything that they're doing. I feel like as with Amanda and Frankie, they got shut down immediately. Don't do it. It's not safe. I guess a lot of people do encounter that experience. And so therefore, they just do not tell the oncologist anything they're doing. I guess, if we could work together, that would be fantastic. I'm never going to give something that's not safe, or that's going to stop the medical treatment from having any effects whatsoever. But I guess there is that fear. And one of my mentors actually said to me, once the fear comes from the fact of they don't want to be sued. So if they just say across the board, nothing natural is safe, then they can't be sued if there is some kind of a side effect from an natural medicine, or an interaction because I guess, and that fear of being sued is probably a big driver of why they just say across the board, nothing's safe articles and studies supporting the synergistic use of supplements or herbs together with medical treatments for better outcomes for the patients. I mean, that comes from the medical journals, and for some reason they just don't get picked up. Genevieve when you work with adults, you talk about emotional drivers or gratitude practice or, you know, hypnosis or long term goals. Is any of that adapted to small children? Is there anything you can take into this for children? Amanda naturally like her personality, she's a real optimist. And at no point well, I think there was like one point all the way through. She believed that Frankie would be well so I guess she was always giving him positive feedback and like always coming from a place of positivity and from a place Have we got this? And you're gonna come through the other side? And you're gonna be? Well, there was one point I think she met someone, Amanda, that you met someone who had their child had the same type of cancer as Frankie. And unfortunately, that child had passed. And you were a bit emotional about that, which is fair enough. But I just said, Look, you don't know what that other family was doing? Were they seeing a naturopath? Were they doing all these other things? You just we don't know. And another thing that Amanda Diddy took bait was really good. So there was a temple like not a temple, but like a church kind of area at the hospital. And you said to me that every day you go there, and you just have your meditation time, and you're like, you know, come on, got this. And you just like, your faith was really strong that he was always going to come out the other side. So I guess that would have been impacted Frankie, because if you see your mum or dad crying all the time, or being negative, or like letting the cancer win, then the child would do that as well. So I guess from an optimistic point of view, they were, like, very optimistic in the family, a lot of family support. And definitely, Amanda and her husband and her whole family, just all came together. And I guess when I say really positive outcomes, like there's, it is a real family event, and everyone comes together. And it's not, you know, one parent or the other parent, or it's just everyone.

Amanda: 26:34

Amanda, how do you manifest those sorts of the right sort of vibe in the family to support Frankie? Is there a conscious effort to have discussions with other children and cousins and grandparents and your husband? And how do you you know, what's the thought pattern around all of that? So we were just straight from the get go, we weren't trying to cotton wool wrap anything for Frankie, we were using the word cancer, we were being very direct. This is what happened. This is what you've got. We referred to his cancer as a bad guy in his body. And the drugs that we and supplements that we were taking with the good guys. So we tried to make him understand I know this medicines, yucky, but you got to take it. It's full of the good guys. And we you know, some people don't like to say the word cancer around those kids. My thing was, I'm just going to bled out. We bought some books about kids with cancer as well, some resources so he could understand about his central line and why he's bald. And you know what I mean? Like it kind of just makes it an age appropriate level. But my husband's family is very, very close. So it was just natural that they were we actually had my two year old son at the time, Leo, he would stay with us sometimes at the Ronald McDonald House there because we live on the Central Coast and John hunters about an hour up the freeway. So he would have sleepovers at the family's house and then come back, people will cooking food for us people were coming to visit us at the Ronald McDonald House. And in terms of keeping my optimism, I just, it's like I just had this feeling inside that I just couldn't actually imagine in my mind him not coming out the other end, it was like just this weird knowing and then I would keep myself and be like, am I optimistically crazy, am I but then we had a few little I call them whispers from the universe. So I used to donate to an animal charity. And during that Christmas period, my card had declined. And one of the representatives had called me and said, You know, I'm just trying to catch up. And you know, if you'd like to continue donating, and I just said Look, right now I'm really in the thick of it. I just I can't anyway, so I explained what had happened. And this particular call or she said my day job is I'm a pediatric oncology nurse. And she said the families that I have come across in I know weird, right? I've got chills thinking about it. The families that I've seen through my career that have remained the most positive and the most optimistic, had better outcomes. And that just stuck with me I thought of all the people to call me and had to be that nurse that day job you know me it was just like a little confirmation from the universe you're on the right track, you know what I mean? And it was just these a couple of little situational things like that. I just thought things just felt right. And I don't know I just had an Yeah, generally was right there was a few really bad moments there where I was really low and I thought oh my god, is this the like, are we going to make it after all, and she really just kind of like helped pick me back up and you know, my husband, I leaned on each other a lot during that time as well. And, you know, just, you know, we'd have our bad days but then we would just be like, Look, that's that's not our journey out everyone is on their own journey. And that's not what's in store for us. Frankie got his all clear prognosis three years ago, roughly, yeah. Well, how is he now? How's the family now? Right. We've gone on to have two more kids since then. And we have just we really live life to the fullest in terms of, you know, we always try and sneak away and go on family holidays. We're always doing fun things with our kids. We're always just living. It's like, we've kind of looked at this cancer diagnosis, in a weird way, as a gift of what's the good that has come from this like since Frankie's diagnosis. I can't even tell you how many people I've referred on to Genevieve people come to me and have a problem. I'm like, I've got a lady you need to see her. So my best friend's mother actually, has just finished her cancer riddled with lung cancer. And first thing we did straight to Genevieve. So I'm looking at all these positive things that have come from such a negative thing that happened to us. And I'm just thinking like, I guess it was given to us for a reason, because of what we've been able to achieve and help and, you know, refer on from being in this journey ourselves. Yeah. What a wonderful outlook. Thank you. Hey, Genevieve, you talked about giving Frankie zinc? And presumably, that's standard treatment for many cancer patients. Did you use any other supplements or herbs?

Genevieve Mlotkowski: 31:11

Oh, yeah, absolutely. So we're used the the RBAC, which is the shitaki extract that's been created by a Japanese company in Japan, actually. You brought them to our to Australia, and I got to meet them. And I actually brought one of my cancer patients to the house that day to meet them because I thought, well, you know, these guys are phenomenal researchers. And they've got this incredible product that, you know, has helped so many people and even some of the studies on SATs, this particular extract the RBAC is that people who don't respond to chemotherapy, then take this product and respond really well. So like some people are on a really big dose, like Frankie was on and off a really big dose of that particular product. And then this like family member, you're like, is your cousin's mom who I'm saying at the moment, she was on like six sachets a day. And she's now at the point where she's so well, that she did get a side effect from the treatment. But they said, even if she didn't have that side effect, they wouldn't even be treating her right now, because the cancer is so small than those small. And she, like people can't even believe she's still alive. So she keeps seeing people, they're like, I can't explain, you're still alive. So really good outcomes, you know, lots of B vitamins and the hospital did do supplements as well. I had Frankie on low goals during the radiotherapy because obviously radiotherapy can cause a lot of side effects, but it strips the body of ideas. So hospital actually had him on low goals to them. We kept him on low goals for some time after that, the high dose iodine, which is you know, in a natural japanese diet, they would be getting these mega doses of iodine based on all the seaweed they're consuming, but in our diet. We don't have seaweed for breakfast, lunch and dinner. So we generally Australians, about 50% Australians are iodine deficient. While I'm sure we had him on vitamin A, after he finished the vitamin A therapy. Yeah, we want to do stuff. So stuff that the doctors and oncologist did that was supplemental, then we thought well, How fantastic is this? We'll continue this with him for a bit longer just to get like bump up those doses of whatever particular nutrients they did have him on. Well, after the oncology team had stopped the supplements we just kept them going kind of thing. So yeah, there was lots of bits and pieces that we've had him on and he was phenomenal with taking stuff. I think you were sneaking it into the juices or Oh

Amanda: 33:58

my god. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So we would bribe him we would be like alright, if you have this, I'll let you have like an ice cream in the freezer like we will like get it in any way we can. Reward System bit of creativity. Okay, all guys want an amazing story. I want an amazing outcome and I'm just so happy I love these stories. You know, there's such feel goods and we need lots of feel goods. So that's wonderful. Thank you so much. Genevieve help people get in touch with you.

Genevieve Mlotkowski: 34:31

They can look at my website, which is getwellwithgen.com and spelt Gen just to confuse people and yeah, so I love seeing cancer people but the best outcomes with cancer is as Amanda did the day after they got the official diagnosis was the first day we started supportive treatment with alongside his medical treatment and so Yeah, ideally in a perfect world, if everyone could see a naturopath who specializes in cancer at the first sign of cancer, rather than I do see people end stage, which, obviously, we are just supporting them with symptoms, quality of life breathing, that kind of thing. Pain Relief, yeah, in a perfect world effect could come right from the get go rather than doing medical treatment for a couple of years. And then the outcomes aren't great. And then they come when things are quite aggressive. So yeah,

Amanda: 35:32

Jen, that is so well said and so true, and reflects the opinion of many practitioners who look at cancer as well. So thank you so much. And the website is get well with gen.com. Amanda, once again, thank you so much for sharing their story. And I you know, if we can make a difference, just a couple of kids from your story, or attitudes towards working together with medicine, that's just, it's just a win for everyone. So thank you so much, and really appreciate it. Thank you. No worries, okay,

Genevieve Mlotkowski: 36:40

thanks.